What do you give back?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

“The key is if you want to eye jab a boxer better know how to box and if your going to get an uninterrupted bite on a ground guy have some ground experience… Have to know your timing and position.” (Ernie)

This is the whole point…“dirty tactics”…for lack of a better term…WILL work in a fight. But the more you know HOW to to fight - the more often those tactics will work.

Sometimes these kinds of moves can be used to set up a more “conventional” fight-ender kind of move(s)…and sometimes the more conventional stuff can set up a dirty tactic move as a fight-ender…

either way - the more you have really trained in a fighting system(s)…the more successful you will be.

It’s not a question of one or the other…that would be a false choice.

42

Originally posted by sihing
Any definition of skill is very subjective, especially when concerned with WC. … If the skill is not there you will notice it over time for sure…After researching many schools throughout the city, including mine, they come back saying that we know what we are doing in my kwoon.

So, it’s not subjective. Lack of skill is apparent, especially when comparing against other schools. Sounds pretty objective to me. Just becuase you’re not fighting everyone who walks through the door, doesn’t mean that there are not other objective means of comparison.

Originally posted by sihing
Not all martial arts allow this to happen, but WC is a very different MA and due to its adherence to the science of movement and pure logic, it allows us as practicioners of the art to become effective fighters(or the best fighters we can be according to our genetic disposition) without sacrificing hours and hours in the training hall throughout our MA careers.
I find that training in WC requires as least as much, if not more training than most other arts I’ve been involved in the past. Is it just me?? I wouldn’t be too surprised if it was. Maybe you just can’t teach an old dog new tricks… :wink:
Just because something adheres to “science” or “logic” does not mean that it is necessarily easier to learn. In some ways the apparent simplicity masks the complexity.

Bill

43

AmanuJRY

How important to you are the people train/work out with and/or teach?

By this I mean, as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group?

[[[[[I always try and get to know the person a bit, what there trying to get from this training, past experience as a reference point, since in my personal training group I only do private or small group I have complete control of who I want to deal with, but when I coach at Gary’s place I have to deal with anyone who walks through the door and when some one is coming in with a chip in there shoulder, I first let them swim around a bit see how the interact ‘ some times people are just nervous but don’t want to show it so the over compensate ‘’ but if the attitude continues I spend time training with them get a feel for what’s going on with them and then talk to them during the session and often after class when everyone is gone , they usually get real excited about working one on one with a ‘’senior ‘’ so I tell them to act right and I’ll help them out , if they still don’t get it then I just stop working with and usually everyone else does as well and they fade out .]]]

As a student, if you don’t like or have a personality conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train? Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?

[[[I just don’t’ work with that individual, since I never view wing chun / chi sau as an actual fight how people get there rocks when there ego is flaring has always made me laugh so I never take it personal just looks like a spoiled child trying to get there way. soon enough a person like that has no partners to work with]]]]]]

As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner’s development as well as your own?

[[[[This is a great question and something I try and pound into to peoples heads all the time, your partner is more important then you, if both parties believe this there is symbiotic growth and good times to be had along the way, if you want the best for the person your working with you will give them your best, good energy when your feeding drills, honesty when they need correction and no ego. I have always had this with the people that taught me and the guys I consider my training partners, another thing I do after were done is a sit down session were we get critique from each other and a outside source ‘’ who ever is the coach ‘’ this way things are honest and there is a genuine bond]]]]

.
How important is it to you that your training environment is comfortable (in the psychological sense) and focused on learning (real learning, not just flowered over technique) and building confidence in your skill, not smack-talking other styles or lineages.

[[[[[As I tell people don’t worry about fighting another wing chun dude, odds are you won’t find one in the street so stop dissecting approaches, you can learn something from anyone. as for flowered over techniques, pressure test it, and ask yourself this what is this drill teaching me, ‘’ body mechanics, attributes what? and how long will it take to develop it and what is the possibility that this will come up in a fight, just a general rule of thumb

Is it our responsibility, as instructors or sihings, to try and provide these types of people with therapy for their issues or weed them out of the group for the benefit of the whole group?

[[[[In life help were ever you could, be as giving as you can, but at the same time be honest with yourself and the person]]]

Maybe I’m just ranting now, but then I feel that the group I train with is important to my development and me to theirs.

[[[[Not so much a rant as the right way to be]]]]]

44

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
As a student, if you don’t like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train? Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?
I used to try to avoid these types. However, I’ve changed my tact in recent years. In the real world, you can’t always avoid those who you “don’t like”. You may need to work with them, regardless of your personal feelings. Besides, everyone has something to teach you. Sometimes it’s “how to deal with difficult people”. Having said this, sometimes there are people who are just too negative to deal with. These people should be asked to leave the school by the Sifu and senior students.

While it is very important that the environment be comfortable and focused on learning, it is equally important that we each come into the environment with that same objective - we are in fact part of that environment and responsible for it. We need to open our mind to learning, otherwise, even the best environment will not be of much value. The concern for your training partner’s development must be equal to your own. A rising tide carries all boats. In other words, as I make my fellow students better, they make me better, and vice versa.

Your mileage may vary.

Bill

45

Any definition of skill is very subjective, especially when concerned with WC.

[[[[I humbly disagree skill can be measured 2 people walk into a room only one walks out the other is carried out, crude but true. now if your talking wing chun training system skill that doesn’t correlate to fighting skill. like wow you got a great root or gee your pak sau is killer. this would be equivalent to going to a boxing gym and saying man I’m the best in town at a jab drill or when I work the speed bag no one can do it like me, you see these are just minor sections of the whole. Ok fine what about the rest of the package and how well can you apply it in an aggressive situation. Something that has always intrigued me when wing chun people high light just one thing like man his pole form is the best or his chi sau is un touchable his 2nd form is out of this works, that just tells me what does he suck at everything else and how does that even matter in live application]]]]]]]]

Did I have to demonstrate to them by putting myself up on a pedestal and making them feel inferior to me?

[[[[What pedestal? if you buy a car you take it for a test drive, you can express skill with out hurting any one, that is one way to measure skill, I would respect a person that wants to know that there getting especially if it’s about combat effective training, it’s not ballet or a day care center, it’s about giving them something that might make the difference between life or death, now I know some people just want the shirt and the secret hand shake, be able to sit on the golf course and tell there friend how the studying in martial arts .and those people need to be catered to as well , but if you got people coming from a rough neighbor hood that have a genuine need they will require proof , I know I did and still question and test my teacher to this day , and he wouldn’t have it any other way ]]]]

46

Matrix

Quote: Matrix
“So, it’s not subjective. Lack of skill is apparent, especially when comparing against other schools. Sounds pretty objective to me. Just becuase you’re not fighting everyone who walks through the door, doesn’t mean that there are not other objective means of comparison.”

 Maybe I didn't explain the example I was using when I said that prospective students came back to my school after checking others out in the city and said we know what we are doing.  By this I meant that our approach and our way of explaining things and the knowledge we had towards lineage, history, technical questions appeared to be superior to the prospect than in the other schools visited.  People would tell me that usually the other schools were run in a unprofessional manner and the instructor couldn't anwser all the questions put to them in the same manner as we could in the school I belong to. The question of skill never came up, as I would never even ask that question to a prospective student or make any statement regarding the skill in my school as compared to any others. Hope this clairfy's my earlier post, and that I still believe that skill is subjective.

Sihing

47

Originally posted by Ernie
, now I know some people just want the shirt and the secret hand shake,
Ernie, There’s a secret hand shake !!
Bro, you’ve been holding out on me. :wink:

…sit on the golf course and tell there friend how the studying in martial arts .and those people need to be catered to as well , but if you got people coming from a rough neighbor hood that have a genuine need they will require proof
I ususally meet these people at parties. There parents must be very proud. :stuck_out_tongue:
Seriously though, these people can be catered to at any number of Mc Dojo’s in town. They just want the drive-thru service anyways.

Ultimately we are talking about Martial Arts here, not Fine Arts.

Bill

48

Ernie, There’s a secret hand shake !!
Bro, you’ve been holding out on me

ok here it is

you put you left in
you take your left foot out
you lock your pinkie fingers and you shake it all about

and for the modified ghetto version you pound you hand on your chest and ad in a sup dog

49

Re: Matrix

Originally posted by sihing
The question of skill never came up, as I would never even ask that question to a prospective student or make any statement regarding the skill in my school as compared to any others. Hope this clairfy’s my earlier post, and that I still believe that skill is subjective.
The ability to explain (i.e teach) and answer technical questions can be measured objectively. As for skill, if you have to tell me how skilled you are then we have another problem. It should be apparent by watching a typical class.

Skill is not objective. There are standards of measure, and I’m not talking about coloured belts. Some people may not be discerning enough to tell the difference, but that, like the skill itself can be developed in time.

Caveat Emptor,
Bill

50

Originally posted by Ernie
ok here it is …
Ernie, Thanks… and that’s the 3.15 degree pinkie finger, right? :smiley:

P.S. I guess it’s not a secret any more.

51

Originally posted by sihing
“Not all martial arts allow this to happen, but WC is a very different MA and due to its adherence to the science of movement and pure logic, it allows us as practicioners of the art to become effective fighters (or the best fighters we can be according to our genetic disposition) without sacrificing hours and hours in the training hall throughout our MA careers.”

I’m sorry, James Roller (sihing)…but every single word of this quote is NOT TRUE.

Every word.

And the ideas put forth here promote laziness, false pride, and disrespect.

Laziness because hour and hours MUST be sacrificed in order to become an “effective fighter”.

False pride (and a false sense of security) because it implies that other martial arts don’t adhere to science and logic - which they do…

and Disrespect both for other non-WC arts, but also in the way that many of those other martial art practitioners look at WC.

They scorn the attitude (and the fighting abilities) of those that espouse the attitude you preach - and with good reason.

52

Well Vic we usually do not agree anyways on most things, so to each there own…best of luck to you…

Sihing

53

And good luck to you too, James…unless you start wearing something funny-looking on your head.

Then all bets are off!

54

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
…unless you start wearing something funny-looking on your head. Then all bets are off!
That reminds me, I remember that Ernie had made a statement earlier on about why people would want to be a “grand poobah” and the thing that crossed my mind was… of course, it’s the hats. :smiley:

Bill

55

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]…but every single word of this quote is NOT TRUE.

Every word.

And the ideas put forth here promote laziness, false pride, and disrespect.

Laziness because hour and hours MUST be sacrificed in order to become an “effective fighter”. [/B]
Victor,
You said it far more bluntly than I did, but in principle I absolutely agree with you. I must admit that I was absolutely baffled by the original quote. Say what?? :rolleyes:

Bill

56

Matrix?

Baffled?? How can you be baffled by what I said? If you believe that WC is not more than you average MA then you are denying its history also. Wasn’t that the whole reason for its creation? We may disagree about who was involved with the history of WC(Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, etc) but the whole idea behind the creation of the art was to be a more effective one, one learned faster and one that would be able to be used by all comers, not a elite few…Like I said earlier, I’m not sure what “you’all” are learning but for me WC is a level above most all the other MA out there, just in its concepts and principals alone put it a step above most everything else. Yes of course one has to put the time in to learn all there is to learn in WC but in the end there will be a difference, and I have no problem stating this fact. I you disagree then you are all on the wrong forum, the JKD forum is just below this one…

Sometimes I wonder where you people are coming from…but you can think what you like, it’s not my mission to convince anyone of anything.

Sihing

57

Re: Matrix?

Originally posted by sihing
I you disagree then you are all on the wrong forum, the JKD forum is just below this one…
James,
I see that your method of discussion is to insult those who do not see things your way. Interesting approach. I think you’re blowing things out of proportion.

You say “Yes of course one has to put the time in to learn all there is to learn in WC but in the end there will be a difference, and I have no problem stating this fact.” So, when did I say otherwise? I said that my experience indicated that I need to train at least as hard as other arts I have been involved in, maybe more. Is the end product better, I hope so, or I’m wasting a lot time. However, your original comment implied that skill comes without the sacrifice of training, because it is logical and scientific. Sorry, but I disagree, and no, I won’t be going anywhere…but thanks for asking. :wink:

Bill

58

denying its history

[[ denying its history ]]

god yes with a passion

[[Sometimes I wonder where you people are coming from ]]]

hey i’m one of ‘’ you ‘’ can’t wait till i’m one of ‘‘those’’ people

[[[ Like I said earlier, I’m not sure what “you’all” are learning but for me WC is a level above most all the other MA out there,]]]

and of course this comes from training in all other systems and having first hand experience in comparing fighting and testing against most all martial arts , because i’m sure this wouldn’t just come from speculation hmmm

hey now i’m a ‘’ you all ‘’ this is getting fun :smiley:

[[[I you disagree then you are all on the wrong forum, the JKD forum is just below this one…]]]]

really and i’m sure if there were a marital ‘‘arts’’ Cryogenics forum you would be all over it

ha ha sorry man just couldn’t help myself

but it does go back to my original post what are you giving back towards the advancement of wing chun ?

59

First of all I’m not here to insult anyone, if one does not agree with another are they not allowed to state there case? When I talk about WC being an “advanced” Martial art here’s what I mean. One has to practice and practice and practice some more, along with a thorough understanding of all the concepts and theories involved with WC. I did just that for about the first 7 years of my involvement with the art (WC is also my first and only martial art studied). Then after that, the skill was there, I have since found that I do not need to do the same things at the same intensity level or the same frequency to maintain or even elevate my skill. I feel better now as an overall practitioner of the art than ever before. Yes, if I choose to start a very strict program of conditioning and WC training I would improve, but for what purpose? I haven’t had to use WC in a fight for years now, and I am quiet satisfied with how my tools perform (speed, flexibility, sensitivity, etc..).

  The impression I have been getting from some on this forum is that WC is just like any other MA, and that one has to "always" train at high intensity levels, even after years and years of WC practice, to maintain the skills they have, and that also other arts must be incorporated into one's WC repertoire to compete on the street against the fighters of today.  If I have misunderstood or offended anyone, then I apologize, by this is what I have been hearing on this forum, that's why I directed people to the JKD forum, because that's what it sounds like to me.  WC has all the tools needed for the average JOE to defend themselves.  After the hard work is put in to learn what has to be learned(a good 3 to 5yrs at least) then the skills "should be" there, therefore intensity levels can decrease and life can be enjoyed again, without losing all that was acquired in the training.

Again, I am not here to insult, just state my case…

Sihing

60

sihing
i learned long ago when it comes to this forum and people i meet that train ,
it is all based of your individual goal
if your training as a hobby and to deal with the average joe and you are happy being the average joe then
by all means ‘’ be happy ‘’

i myself have a very active life far beyond average , i push myself in all that i do ,
so that same ethic will be in my wing chun training

i also don’t play with average joes , i deal with skilled athletic people that train like nut bags this is what we enjoy and brings good times , we would rather be sparring , training, doing chi sau or in the gym then drinking smokeing or over eating at the local pub or sitting infront of the tv with a beer and pizza yelling at some one else performing on the tube .

sometimes when i’m tired and everything hurts and the alrm goes off and it’s still dark outside but i have to meet my boys for a run or in the ring before they go to work
i wish i was a average joe , but that is not in my blood

doesn’t mean one is better or more important then the other just different life choices

you will find a seperation of application and training from these different types of people

if you are happy were you are at then you have found your way and that is the answer for you but that may not be what works for me :smiley:

if training hard and pushing myself testing and refineing my skill means i belong on a jkd forum then perhaps i do and i take that as a compliment :smiley:

as for why ?
i would push , why not ? how else will you find that inner honesty