What do you give back?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Ernie,

pls dont loose faith.there really are great gm and even a shiofus out there worth their salt…

peace lil bro

I am surrounded by highly skilled people, and there are tons all over the world, I just don’t have any respect for titles nor do I see a need for them
As soon as some one introduces themselves as master this or that I tend to laugh [no joke has happened a few times] and I usually ask them master of what in regards to who, I don’t get it?

I’m not rude, but I don’t give automatic respect beyond just treat them the same as I would a bum in the street, just human decency

No one is nor ever will be my master thus there can be no gm

But there are plenty of individuals I respect, on a one to one, just plain good soul level

So you see there is nothing to loose faith about
:smiley:

peace and elbow greas back atcha lotus;)

22

Ernie
[B]They take the identity or accomplishments as there own, they take the history or should I say histories and connect themselves to it, like through some kind of osmosis or DNA they inherit wing chun skill. They create groups and organizations and huddle under their umbrellas, become masters of there little micro universe.

They take and feed off the reputations of others, they take and feed off the reputation of wing Chun [/B]

This, I think, comes from the “buisness” mindset. In the process of creating a buisness plan, you usually define what it is that sets you apart from your competition. In MA, it would be other MA (but with WC/WT/VT, it seems they/we focus on each other). I believe the only reason for the connection you describe is because being connected to someone that is “famous” helps bring in students (and being a buisness; students=$$$), that is also why they are all about the mudslinging, it’s propaganda to retain students and a hardball marketing strategy.
But this kind of stuff can be seen in other education based buisnesses (private schools, colleges/universities, tech schools, etc.). – “Learn here and recieve the best education in your chosen field.”

Ernie
I have never understood this infatuation with the past and people trying to be the grand poobah of there own little empire.

LMAO, true…and kinda sad:(

As for infatuation with the past, I’m guilty, but I’m something of a history fan, it has little to do with training.

Ernie
These same individuals that everyone is trying to latch themselves to stood out because they contributed, the shed blood for the advancement of the system, they were not bottom feeders but leaders that took a chance and experimented, or else why would we admire them.
Should we not follow their example and try and grow, instead of feeding off their carcass

This poses the question - How do we respect, honor and follow the example of those individuals, without connecting-in some way- to their experience and accomplishments?

Pit-falls = Hero worship, ego, liniage propaganda/brainwashing, etc.

Ernie
How does any of this improve your skills and advance the wing Chun system?

It doesn’t… :frowning:

Ernie
What are they; we doing to give back and further progress in the development of wing Chun and ourselves on an individual level.

What I want to give back to WC is to learn and teach an open minded, analitical view of WC in an open and ego-free environment.
How I want to further progress individually is to be respectful of and thankful for my training partners…my sihings and sidais. Those who dedicate time and effort into progress, and who have helped in creating the afore-mentioned open and ego-free environment.
And always respect where the knowledge came from.

23

AmanuJRY

[[This, I think, comes from the “buisness” mindset. In the process of creating a buisness plan, you usually define what it is that sets you apart from your competition. ]]

and in turn splinter and weaken the whole :frowning:

[[[This poses the question - How do we respect, honor and follow the example of those individuals, without connecting-in some way- to their experience and accomplishments?]]]]

buy focusing on the organic process of growth , gain inspiration , base everything of your individualism ,write your story don’t live theres
everything has a certian timing , those same people that stood out then , stood out because events around them caused them to stand out ,
if those same people started to come out today the might go un noticed , it is how the world works .

[[[What I want to give back to WC is to learn and teach an open minded, analitical view of WC in an open and ego-free environment.
How I want to further progress individually is to be respectful of and thankful for my training partners…my sihings and sidais. Those who dedicate time and effort into progress, and who have helped in creating the afore-mentioned open and ego-free environment.
And always respect where the knowledge came from.]]]]]

then you have answered my question , now just do it :smiley:
you dictate your enviroment , there is no room for ego , only growth , and what good is growth if we can’t help another grow
you have a good heart my friend , your words were honest i admire that :smiley:
perhaps one day we can meet in a ego free enviroment and you can teach me a few things :wink:

24

Amen brutha!:cool:

"you have a good heart my friend , your words were honest i admire that
perhaps one day we can meet in a ego free enviroment "

Thanx, how 'bout next month? :smiley:

25

Thanx, how 'bout next month

:wink:

26

This is something that Ernie posted on a different thread:

"The second an instructor tells you.
You don’t need to train with outsiders
You don’t need to spar [share and compare] with other arts
You don’t need some level of conditioning

Then rest assured you are not learning a fighting art ."

You see…I have a slightly different take on the “Masters” and Grandmasters"…the “sifu” vs. the “coach” thing…etc.

I don’t mind all the hoopla if the person in question does not fall into the category that Ernie describes above.

If someone is really good (he can REALLY do his system…and his system is effective)…and he has an open-minded attitude regarding the things that Ernie mentioned…

then I have no problem addressing him by his title.

But if the person in question has not DEMONSTRATED..in action…his excellence…then all bets are off!

Then he’s just John Doe - as far as I’m concerned.

27

I gotta agree with most of what Victor P. just related, obviously if the person, sifu or whatever knows d!ck then he doesn’t deserve the title or to be teaching anything for that matter. But if the Sifu has earned the respect of students, and paid their dues in their respective arts then my question is this, “How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door”. For me I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, I’ve earned everything I have, as I am sure allot of the people on this forum have done the same. To simplify all of this, when one has the skill they shouldn’t have to prove anything to anyone, the skill they have will be apparent in everything they do and in the students they have…Just a thought..

Sihing

28

Sihing

hmmmmm how do you define skill ?

[[How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door"]]]

every single time , i watch my teacher do it [ say him sparking up a few guys this morning visiting from different lineages ]

i test him all the time , toe to toe
it’s my job to push his game and he loves it

i excpect the same from the guys i train , if i’m slipping drop me
keeps me focused and honest .

29

Please pardon my intrusion . . . but Ernie asked the million dollar question: how do you define skill ?

IMO since we’re training WCK to fight, our skill is measured only in one way: by how well we can fight (using our WCK as we say we can). In other words, how skillful the opposition we can routinely handle. (We measure the skill of tennis players by the level of opponents they can beat, we measure the skill of boxers by the level of opponents they can beat, and we measure the skill of chessplayers by the level of opponents they can beat.)

What doesn’t say anything about one’s skill is “touching hands”, i.e., pretend fighting (it may give you an idea of how someone will try to use their WCK, but it doesn’t mean they will be able to).

Regards,

Terence

30

IMO since we’re training WCK to fight, our skill is measured only in one way: by how well we can fight (using our WCK as we say we can).

b-i-n-g-o :smiley:

one of the things that drew me to wc was the fact that when ever i saw a demo they never said punch like this or kick like this
it was allways open ended just attack me or i will attack you and we will work it out from there

it’s the same way i do a demo , sure i hold back and don’t leave them busted up
but a little shell shocked and on there butt never hurt any one
:smiley:

just like when people visit and say they want to test my skill and ask me to chi sau

if they just wan to roll and play with structure and sensitivity cool but if the want to ‘‘test me’’

i tell them glove up and lets move around or don’t glove up and lets move around

it’s amazing how shocked and insulted some people get buy that
never understood that :rolleyes:

31

How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door

In arts like BJJ, you are constantly proving yourself to everyone stepping onto the mat, and most especially, to yourself. The BB’s all wrestle, and very occasionally get tapped (but only by the very best students).

Most of the BJJ schools in the '90’s expected and took challenges. John Will, head of the Machado org here, and another then purple belt (JW is now a 3rd degree BB) took all the challenges in turn when he was training in California, sometimes 4 or 5 a night.

You go into any BJJ school today, you will not get to fight the BB, A purple belt will accept your challenge. And you WILL find it extremely difficult.

Last WC hero who came to our WC kwoon wanting to test us was given a guy about his size with three years’ training. Our guy took him down and submitted him about ten times in five minutes. He decided to pull out his “deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option” and only succeeded in annoying our guy, bad move.

As an instructor, you should be constantly proving your ability to teach to every prospective student that comes through the kwoon door. In a sale, it’s called “the moment of truth”. You are only EVER as good as the last class you taught.

In one of Marc “Animal” MacYoung’s books, he talks about two types of leaders on the street. The first type, if you challenge him, he’ll have to stand up, all his buds will stand behind him hoping he’s going to beat you. The second, all his buds will stand between you and him, saying “you aint going to get in his face.” You’ll be fighting all of them before you get close to him.

As you get older, you really want to be trying to turn yourself into that second guy.

32

Andrew Nerlich wrote: He decided to pull out his “deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option” and only succeeded in annoying our guy, bad move.

**I’m glad you pointed out on of the common “myths” among folks that don’t routinely fight (put it to the test): that the eyejab along with the groinkick (I’ve heard some call it their two primary weapons!) will save their @ss. IME for the most part, these things are grossly overrated in effectiveness and are low-percentage shots that more often than not leave the person trying them in a worse pickle.

Regards,

Terence

33

COMPILATION TAPE #2

“How many times do I have to prove myself to every Tom, D!ck and Harry that comes through my kwoon door…every single time , i watch my teacher do it [ saW him sparking up a few guys this morning visiting from different lineages ]…,i test him all the time , toe to toe… it’s my job to push his game and he loves it… i expect the same from the guys i train , if i’m slipping drop me, keeps me focused and honest.”

“IMO since we’re training WCK to fight, our skill is measured only in one way: by how well we can fight (using our WCK as we say we can). In other words, how skillful the opposition we can routinely handle. (We measure the skill of tennis players by the level of opponents they can beat, we measure the skill of boxers by the level of opponents they can beat, and we measure the skill of chessplayers by the level of opponents they can beat.)”

“just like when people visit and say they want to test my skill and ask me to chi sau… if they just wan to roll and play with structure and sensitivity cool but if the want to ‘‘test me’’… i tell them glove up and lets move around or don’t glove up and lets move around,
it’s amazing how shocked and insulted some people get buy that
never understood that.”

"Last WC hero who came to our WC kwoon wanting to test us was given a guy about his size with three years’ training. Our guy took him down and submitted him about ten times in five minutes. He decided to pull out his “deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option” and only succeeded in annoying our guy, bad move.

As an instructor, you should be constantly proving your ability to teach to every prospective student that comes through the kwoon door. In a sale, it’s called “the moment of truth”. You are only EVER as good as the last class you taught."

The management of this T.V. station…WPIWANNAKEEPITREAL…wishes to thank all those who have contributed to this award-winning program, entitled…“Let’s Join the 21 ft Century - Okay Wingchunners?”

Thank you, and good night!

34

Terence

Have to disagree with you a bit there, as far as eye jab and groin shots, they have saved my butt a few times, like any tool it can be cultivated to a high degree and when used in the right place and time or set up correctly it is the most efficient tool for the job. Now this mean their needs to be a few prerequisites like timing speed distance power and can you fake.
On the ground which I have very limited experience, but I have rolled/sparred with bjj blue belts and vale tudo guys, I have cause them a lot of havoc with slapping the balls and biting and the occasional eye massage.
Last week I was working out at gold’s gym local hot spot for roid heads and my neighbor thought it would be funny to send one of his 250-pound half man half animal buddies to make an example of me while I was drinking water. Dude walked up behind me and was right about to give a bear hug, I popped my foot into his nuts on reflex, thinking it was my neighbor just trying to play with me, spun around saw this huge dude piked up grabbing his balls with his eyes all bugged out bright red in the face, not sure what was on I gave him a thigh kick on that big side a beef leg he had, and down he went.

By that time my boy ran over laughing and told me to chill, we all had a big laugh after but the guy had a good sense of humor ‘’ thank god ‘’
In all honesty I wouldn’t want to go toe to toe with this guy =)

35

Hi Ernie,

I’ve found that they have limited usefulness (depending mainly on the level of skill of the opposition – they work well on the poorly-skilled, less so as the skill level of the opposition increases – and on how well-developed the level of your attributes are; the targets are difficult to hit, the contact has to be “just right” to have much of an effect, these targets are instinctively protected, good fighters can “soak up” some pain, etc.) mainly as set-ups or distractions but in a “full-out” situation against skilled fighters they aren’t effective as “fight-enders” (Nerlich’s “deadly eye gouge thermonuclear option” LOL! Good one, Andrew!) or even as serious threats (personally, I’d prefer an opponent that was trying to do them against me – it means he’s not focusing on the “good stuff”).

But if you can make them work (and have made them work against skilled fighters in a genuine fighting environment), good for you. In the end, we need to find out what it is that we can personally do (which can only be found from the doing). Hawkins’ says “theory is great, but can you do it?” Someone “theorizing” that they can realy on eye-jabs and groinkicks should the sh1t hit the fan is IME in for a rude awakening.

Regards,

Terence

36

Hawkins’ says, “theory is great, but can you do it?”

Dude Hawkins will smack you in the groin in a heartbeat ha ha

But I hear it’s can you pull it off, skill level will dictate, but I have never seen wing chun as strong approach against a skilled fighter in a aware situation when you have decided to square off and your going to have a go and see what happens,
Now you’re dealing with conditioning, pain tolernence and attributes

But on that note I have seen allot of dudes that I wall eat punches for lunch
When I sparred with Thai dudes they were real good at vibeing off pain.
But at soon as I took them out of their game balls eyes head butts tight ballistic elbows and low line knee shots they were not conditioned for that type of pain,

Now this has been my personal research subject to change as I evolve

But I have yet to see anyone be able to hard-core there nuts and eyes

The key is if you want to eye jab a boxer better know how to box and if your going to get a UN interrupted bite on a ground guy have some ground experience

Have to know your timing and position

Got run 4th of July festivities are calling

37

To add to the original question,

How important to you are the people train/work out with and/or teach?

By this I mean,as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group? Do you have a grace period or trial period that you can observe people and their 'tude?

As a student, if you don’t like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train? Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?

As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner’s development as well as your own?

I think most of the bad elements in WC today are people who have a predisposition towards such behavior or people with such predisposition who have been coached by someone with similar pesonality issues.
How important is it to you that your training environment is comfortable (in the psychological sense) and focused on learing (real learning, not just flowered over technique) and building confidence in your skill, not smack-talking other styles or liniages.
Is it our responsibility, as instructors or sihings, to try and provide these types of people with therapy for their issues or weed them out of the group for the benifit of the whole group?

Maybe I’m just ranting now, but then I feel that the group I train with is important to my development and me to theirs.

38

“By this I mean,as an instructor/school owner, do you interview or screen people to see if they will have a negative impact on your group?”

As my coach says, “the d*ckheads weed themselves out”. He’s occasionally said “we’re full up” to punters who come through the door who are obvious fruit loops. A few people have been asked to leave over the years.

“Do you have a grace period or trial period that you can observe people and their 'tude?”

Yeah, it starts with their first class and continues throughout their membership of the academy.

“As a student, if you don’t like or have a personallity conflict with someone else at your school, do you still train?”

As a senior student and assistant instructor, I have a duty to help people fit in as well as possible. I’ve generally found the best way to deal with people with whom I have personaility clashes is to be extra nice to them, and maybe do them a favour, be it extra attention, loaning them a tape, or something similar.

“Is your instructor open to discussing the issue?”

My instructor is extremely attentive to any such clashes and discord and ENCOURAGES such discussion. He’s very occasionally held conflict resolution meetings when he felt they became necessary.

"As a training partner, are you as concerned with your partner’s development as well as your own? "

Most people start out concerned only with their own development. Over time, friendships develop, and the pleasure and value of helping your juniors becomes apparent. This stuff’s way too hard to stick with if you don’t have friends doing it with you. You don’t get good at an MA by yourself.

39

WRT eye gouges, groin shots, etc. you can probably use these effectively if you have game without them. If you can’t fight, these tactics won’t help much without a lot of luck.

As a grappler once said, “if you can’t beat us with rules, how are you going to beat us without them?”

40

Any definition of skill is very subjective, especially when concerned with WC. In comparison it is like when your buddy thinks the chick walking down the street in her short skirt is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and your there scratching your head wondering what’s so hot about her. It all depends on what you’re used to and what you have been exposed to. Logically skill would mean to me someone that has a high level of competence in all areas of a specific subject. We all think that our instructors are skilful people, time will tell that tale. If the skill is not there you will notice it over time for sure. Now as for always having to test ourselves to everyone, I do not agree with that. Like I said it will be reflected in everything you do while you are teaching and in those that you have taught. I’m not sure what everyone else is learning, but for me after the basics have been learned, then understood and worked at over and over again, there comes a time when they become second nature and require less practice to maintain. We have many students that have less and less time to train due to life commitments, but still have a high skill level due to their training in the beginning stages of their training. Not all martial arts allow this to happen, but WC is a very different MA and due to its adherence to the science of movement and pure logic, it allows us as practicioners of the art to become effective fighters(or the best fighters we can be according to our genetic disposition) without sacrificing hours and hours in the training hall throughout our MA careers.

  Many times over the last few weeks I have had prospects come into the school and say the same thing.  After researching many schools throughout the city, including mine, they come back saying that we know what we are doing in my kwoon.  Did I have to fight with these prospective students? Nope.  Did I have to demonstrate to them by putting myself up on a pedestal and making them feel inferior to me?  Nope.  All we do in the school I belong to is make them feel comfortable, give them adequate explanations of why things are done the way they are, answer their questions, and make them feel that they can achieve the exact same skill I have, as the art of Wing Chun was created for that very purpose, for everyone to learn on equal ground.  And they can!

Sihing