I’ve got the impression from reading some of the threads in this forum (and just from talking to people) that some people are of the opinion that a Kung Fu exponent up against a Muay Thai style kickboxer would get flattened. I think the image in their head is of the Kung Fu guy getting steamrollered by the kickboxer. Anyone got any thoughts on this? I’m not saying this is my opinion, just one i’ve heard. And no “it depends on the experience of the fighters” blah blah blah.
Do you think Kung Fu can hold its own against muay thai kickboxing? I think the answer is (obviously) yes. But it would seem to me some people don’t, so come on, lets be having you.
Muay Thai is largly brute force. Fighting smart will always win out over pure force. Kung Fu (skill over time) IS fighting smart.
You do the math.
“Bruce Leroy. That’s who!”
Have you ever done muay thai?
Largely brute force? Yes. Coupled with solid technique, training methods, and an intricacy that few people recognize.
Don’t kid yourself. Muay thai is a complex and highly effective art. Some of the manipulations I’ve seen from the plum or frame position are brilliant.
There’s no answering this “Who would win” question. It’s pointless. But discounting muay thai because it’s ‘basic’ is a bad idea based on a flawed premise.
And lest I be accused of partisanship, yeah I’m a big fan of gung fu.
Stuart B.
Not a Chance
Also, kungfu has Dim Mak (the death touch); or can aerial summersault over his head, breaking his neck on the way; the one-finger throw developed by Ueshiba; project Killing Chi from a distance if one is lazy; and if we get pissed off we’ll just rip his throat or his heart out with our bare hand.
Against “Muay Thai Knees and Elbows” we’ve got sticky elbows and sticky knees.
I don’t even think i’ve started the catalogue of weapons in the kungfu arsenal.
“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”
“Have you ever done muay thai?”
No. I’ve also never ballet danced but I know enough from observation to comment on it.
“Largely brute force? Yes.”
Great. That IS my premise. You agree. So do you think that “largely brute force” is going to hold up against perfected Internal technique, i.e. Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing I?
“Coupled with solid technique, training methods, and an intricacy that few people recognize.”
You could say the same of wrestling, boxing, shootfighting, kickboxing, etc. Do you really believe these arts are superior or even equal to an in depth understanding and ability to apply Internal technique?
“Don’t kid yourself.”
Okay.
“Muay thai is a complex and highly effective art.”
Never said it wasn’t. I’m just saying it isn’t as complex and highly effective as say Small Frame Yang T’ai Chi. And one wouldn’t expect it to be given that it also takes a lot less time to master.
“Some of the manipulations I’ve seen from the plum or frame position are brilliant.”
Cool. I’m sure you’re right. Notice I didn’t equate Muay Thai to the likes of just putting one’s head down and charging straight and mindless like a bull.
“There’s no answering this “Who would win” question.”
Sure there is. The answer is Kung Fu because it is more sophisticated and effective. And I don’t think a lot of practitioners who have truly studied both exhaustively would disagree with me.
“It’s pointless.”
The point is one promises a higher degree of self-defense capability.
“But discounting muay thai because it’s ‘basic’ is a bad idea based on a flawed premise.”
I never discounted it. I just said it doesn’t stand up to Kung Fu. And not because it’s “basic”. Because it’s MORE “basic”. And it’s NOT a “bad” idea as you put it. It’s simply a correct idea based on the premise you agreed with in your own post: “Largely brute force? Yes.” That’s my premise. So if it’s flawed, why did you agree?
Let the argument continue…
P.S. I agree with Stumblefist.
“Bruce Leroy. That’s who!”
I still hold that it’s a flawed premise. You say that, clearly, because gung fu is more intricate it is superior, yeah? That muay thai cannot compete with the internal strength of good gung fu.
Can that premise be proven? You find it self evident. Why? To my mind, no argument that’s counted on to prove itself can be considered a strong one.
You didn’t say that muay thai was hopeless. In fact, you were quite flattering of it. But you still believe that muay thai, the art, couldn’t hold its own against gung fu, the art.
But arts don’t fight. People do. So what’s the premise? That any muay thai fighter couldn’t beat any gung fu fighter? That a good muay thai fighter couldn’t beat a good gung fu player? That a muay thai fighter of 20 years couldn’t beat a xingyi fighter of 20 years?
Where does the theory end? And what proves it?
I’m not claiming I know the answer. I’m not claiming that muay thai would win. I’m not claiming anything except that it’s not as simple as A > B.
Stuart B.
One more thing. Yeah, I do believe in the ability of wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, and shootfighting to beat internal strength.
Just as I believe in the opposite.
I believe that when theory and reality meet, they seldom look alike.
Stuart B.
Well said Stuart.
Cheers. 
Absorbtion
I’ve done Muay Thai!
I’ve done it in my Chinatown club. (also a little in Thailand).
Point is: basic kungfu can absorb anything, we can take in anything and use it because we provide the basics for all fighting arts.
Do Muay Thai people bring in kungfu techniques?
No. They can’t.
They have a limited perspective.
We can eat them, they can’t eat us.
We are sponge, they are water.
“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”
Depends on the style
People are lumping all Kungfu in one style, it’s not. There are hundreds of CMA and to tell you the truth I think alot of them COULDN’T stand up to Muay Thai. CMA’s tend to forget that the techniques are the simplist ones and they always argue that they are superior cause they have “more complexity”. Some styles can beat Muay Thai some are equal and some will lose (if he fighters were clones of each other). People shouldn’t just say Kungfu is weak they should say what paticular style they feel is weak cause the styles differ drastically.
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www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net
Stumblefist,
No offense, but you’ve done muay thai in your Chinatown club? That’s a kung fu club, yeah? And “a little” in Thailand? Do you consider yourself a fair representation of the capabilities and limitations of muay thai? I would not, in your place. That’s all I’m saying.
Kung fu can absorb muay thai but not vice versa? And that guarantees your success? That’s two flawed assumptions, to my mind.
One: why couldn’t a practitioner of muay thai learn concepts from kung fu? And integrate them into his kickboxing? Why could a kung fu fighter do so?
I suspect you’re working off of the notion that muay thai, as a ring sport, doesn’t use kung fu techniques. Independent of whether that’s true or not, what’s to stop a proponent of muay thai from using techniques outside of muay thai as well? Not in the ring, but in real life.
In the ring, muay thai has proven itself repeatedly, yes?
Two: If kung fu absorbs muay thai, then it can defeat it. I don’t buy that. Not wholesale. Even taking into account the sanda/muay thai matches, sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other.
I think that attempts to paint things in black and white are security measures. We don’t like the idea that we don’t know whether we’d win or no, so we come up with a formula that answers the question.
But formulas don’t fight either. Still just people.
Stuart B.
Shaolindynasty,
I don’t think they should even say that much. Two people fight. One wins. (If that.)
No bigger truths. No sweeping revelations. Just the event and the outcome.
Stuart B.
this is a ridiculous disscussion becuse it doesnt matter what style is better it depends on the fighter!
if 2 equally skilled fighters fought then obviously kung fu would win, it has much more in its arsenal and much more complexed and indepth basis, but again a kung fu practioner can be beat up by a street fighter, wrestler or boy scout if they trained harder, so the question should be what stlye is better for you if you want to fight! the answer is whatever practioner trained harder
There you have it. Though even between two equally skilled practitioners, no conclusion is foregone.
Stuart B.
As far as whether or not Muay Thai uses kungfu techniques or not, my internal teacher says that Muay Thai is a “watered down version of White Crane”. I didn’t press him on it, but I do plan on asking him for more information about this. Anyhow, his point was “Everyone fears the Thai, but why? It’s only technique”.
A hammer only works well if I use it correctly.
We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!
It’s a good question. Why fear the Thai? I think it’s as irrational to assume that a thai boxer would win as it is to assume that a gung fu fighter would win.
Why do it at all? Why come up with these hypothetical matches? What do we get out of them?
Entertainment? Okay, game on. Security? It’s false security. Two idealized fighters from two idealized styles meeting on an idealized battlefield will tell you nothing about your life, right?
So why dream up these scenarios?
Stuart B.
An argument going here…
Ap O. Ok I don’t want a big thing of this but, but:
“Do you consider yourself a fair representation of the capabilities and limitations of muay thai?”
No, how much i’ve done is not important, what’s important is that i understand that my KF basics provide everything for MT practice and more. That is what most good kungfu styles do: provide the basics for almost all sports and fighting arts.
“Kung fu can absorb muay thai but not vice versa? And that guarantees your success? That’s two flawed assumptions, to my mind.”
It obviously can’t GUARANTEE sucess. The first statement is not an assumtion but from experience.
“One: why couldn’t a practitioner of muay thai learn concepts from kung fu? And integrate them into his kickboxing? Why could a kung fu fighter do so?”
Because kungfu basics are WHOLE BODY basics including external and internal. MT are not. KF basics have a much broader base, you can even consider MT to be part of KF like one of the other posts suggests (crane). But you cannot consider KF to be a part of MT.
“I suspect you’re working off of the notion that muay thai, as a ring sport, doesn’t use kung fu techniques.”
They don’t use them , and i trained with them enough to see their basics. and i will say i’ve had a lot of experience to be able to understand and evaluate martial art basics.
“Independent of whether that’s true or not, what’s to stop a proponent of muay thai from using techniques outside of muay thai as well? Not in the ring, but in real life.”
He will have to start learning KF basics and training methods. KF conversely already has his.
Most MT fighters in Thailand are simply MT fighters.
“In the ring, muay thai has proven itself repeatedly, yes?”
Look at the Baji vs Muay Thai thread in Internal arts at at the picture posted there. And i don’t know about “in the ring” who’s ring?, who’s rules?
and what participants? I don’t know if you can get the two different arts (a real representation) to fight.
“Two: If kung fu absorbs muay thai, then it can defeat it. I don’t buy that. Not wholesale. Even taking into account the sanda/muay thai matches, sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other.”
Sanda represents kungfu? Haha or should i say
:mad: :mad:
(Sanda vs Muay thai) with the rules of both of those groups represents kungfu fighting? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
…
All the same i grant you, these guys are fierce fighters.
“A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell.”
Why fear the Thai?
Actually a simple reason.
Muay Thai men are warriors of attrition. Hit a thai guy. hit him again. hit him again. He’ll still be there. Watch a thai fight. they will stand toe to toe and exchange blows. Very few traditional martial artists train with this extreme conditioning, endurance and full contact experience that a seasoned veteran of muay thai has in his favor. take away the rules of a ring and you have a man very capable of absorbing punishment and continuing to fight and dish out his own until he is the one left standing.
What do I know… I’m just a kickboxer, what could I know about effective fighting? :rolleyes:
Stumblefist,
Honestly, I don’t know whether sanda represents gung fu. I guess not. I’m not that familiar with sanda. No need to roll your eyes though. I just wanted to acknowledge that matches had taken place between thai and chinese stylists. And that the chinese stylists had met with a certain level of success.
How do you know that gung fu basics provide you with everything for muay thai practice and more if you admit that you only have a limited knowledge of muay thai? Outside of the theoretical statement that “that is what most good kungfu styles do.”
Actually, I’m getting argumentative for the sake of it. And I don’t want that. So I’m sorry.
“It obviously can’t GUARANTEE success. The first statement is not an assumtion but from experience.”
Okay, that’s exactly my point. My only point. That nothing guarantees success. This thread has featured statements like “obviously, this” and “clearly, that.” And in reality, it’s not obvious or clear. Two abstract fighters don’t reveal anything about reality, no matter how much we’d like them to.
Gung fu features WHOLE BODY basics? Okay. Muay thai doesn’t. Personally, I don’t really adhere to that definition of internal and external. But that may be due to lack of experience. So let’s assume that there is a profound difference between internal and external. And that muay thai doesn’t possess internal. Many styles don’t. So, logically, gung fu could defeat any and all of those styles because, on paper, there’s more to it.
Do you believe that? Personally, I do not. I mean, listen to it. Gung fu could beat muay thai. Who is ‘gung fu’? Who is ‘muay thai’? They’re not people. They’re abstractions. And they don’t exist outside of the people who train them. So who are we really talking about?
Stuart B.