I thought this was a cool article on the duels fought in New Orleans back in the 19th century. Some good info on some famous duellists.
I like it. D a m n interesting, if a little petty in reflection. Dying because you moved your chair!!!
very cool…
Man, that was a good read, but it left me wanting more… much more. For instance, what the hell is a colichemarde? How did creole fencers fight? What were the preferred weapons aside from swords and pistols? How did one learn how to fight with a Bowie knife without getting disembowled? (I mean, you can’t really wake up one day, grab your knife and decide that you’re going to become the world’s deadliest bowie knife wielder..)
Anyone know where I can read up more on this?
raving_limerick,
“Of course, duels did not always terminate in a fatality; often injured dignity was appeased by the first blood drawn, and the duellists sometimes left the park arm in arm.”
rogue,
I guess I was over-exaggerating a little. 
But still, it seems there was lots of knife fights in the west up until the early days of last century, if there’s any truth to the tales told in old newspapers. I’m willing to guess that most of those were not appeased at the first drawing of blood either, so, I’m just wondering how one lived long enough to gain the training to use the knife if there was no organized system or teachers? Did they have manuals, or was it more hands on? Everything I’ve read about the wild west seems to just assume that the combatants in question were fairly competent in using their weapons and glosses over any training that they might have recieved.
I seem also to remember reading something about how many of the old west’s gunslingers were pretty adapt at the knife too. Was this true, or is this more the product of too many spaghetti westerns?
I’m just asking because I’m curious to how this stuff actually worked.
Ravering Limrick,
As a amature Western MA’st
From what I understand, their both were and weren’t organized systems and schools, as in the old Bowie duelling schools, most of it was forged out of personal testing both in battle and in civilan self defense, that and based on different Euorpean military saber, bayonet and knife methods, excersices and drills, like that of the English Saber and Spainish Navaja.
Drills being done with solo drills, sparring, target drills, training weapons, and cutting practice.
One should also take into account that these men used their bowies on a daily bases besides fighting, for skinning, cutting wood, clearing a path, even paddling. This would give them a deep connection to their weapon, its feel, how to handle it, plus a good set of solid physical attributes behind it.
The king of the Western bowie fighting knife movement is James Keating, the founder of Comtech, and the one who runs the Riddle of Steel, he teaches a passed-down bowie system, their are other men like Bill Bagwell, Colonel Dwight McLemore-School of Two Swords, the Ohio Squirril Hunters Society, and I believe Pete Katuz of Alliance that also teaches bowie work as well as rough and tumble western unarmed combat.
James Keating has a tape series that you can purchase which shows these methods in great detail.
**** Black Jack, have you been rooting through my favorites folder? i like that article.
That is a great article,
Talk about a born to the core martial arts master, I would rather cut my own balls off with a wooden cooking spoon than had I to face a ****ed of Pepe Llulla.
I like the story about the U.S. Congressman Emile La Sere, a very small and quick to anger duellist, who would bandage and sit with his stricken duellist intell he knew he was ok, even if that took all night.
Those men had STONES, the posion pill duals, they must of been made of iron!
Black Jack,
So, it’s safe to say that there would have been different “styles” (to use a word very loosely) in American knife fighting? I would imagine that the Cajuns would have been more influenced by French fencing, while other groups of frotiers men would have looked vaguely similar? Just wondering your opinion on this.
It’s wierd, the more I think about it, I wonder that if the cultural climate in the west had been a little different, more rigidly codified systems of fighting would have developed? I know they sort of did to the extent of wrestling styles (Cumberland, Cornish, Catch-as-Catch-Can, and that one where they tried to gouge out the eye of the opponent-- from Virgina I think) and a few variations on basic boxing (Irish versus British versus Savate), but these weren’t as rigidly adhered to like a lot of CMAs seem to be. The western approach just seems to be, IMO, “Let’s give you a framework” and then you build on top of it, not like “here’s how you MUST do things”.
Cool. Anyhow, thanks for humoring a rank amateur here.
Yeah their were and are different methods and theories of fighting, some based on locale and background, some proper military training, some family based, some just a few tricks picked up from anywhere to give the fighter a edge, that same as in any Chinese style, expect not as set in stone, as their were no forms, only hands on training, giving a person a more personal & creative apporach.
On the aspect of American knife fighting, that in itself is a broad word, I prefer the term western methods as it allows for a much better understanding, Spanish Navaja, Sicilian Stellito, Zipota, South American Razors, Engilsh Saber, Polish Saber, Spanish/French/Italian Swordplay, Military Bayonet training, American Bowie, American Indian long knife work, Prison Shanking techniques, Military methods like Biddle, Applegate, Fairbairn, O’Neill, Styers.
Their are still systems and styles around, some even codified as in the Manuel Del Baratoe(?) for the Navaja, or found in old military texts, a lot passed down from teacher to student, or even recreated from old military works by using hands on R&D as in the case of the older Medival and Renissance systems, such as those found in Fiore de Liberi’s Flos Duellatorium of 1410 or Das Solothurner Fechtbuch of 1423.
But the codified part is not always stuck in stone, if it works use it seems to be the motto.
If you are interested check out the following to start.
www.jameskeating.com
www.twoswords.com
www.alliancemartialarts.com
www.haca.com
Yeah their were and are different methods and theories of fighting, some based on locale and background, some proper military training, some family based, some just a few tricks picked up from anywhere to give the fighter a edge, that same as in any Chinese style, expect not as set in stone, as their were no forms, only hands on training, giving a person a more personal & creative apporach.
On the aspect of American knife fighting, that in itself is a broad word, I prefer the term western methods as it allows for a much better understanding, Spanish Navaja, Sicilian Stellito, Zipota, South American Razors, Engilsh Saber, Polish Saber, Spanish/French/Italian Swordplay, Military Bayonet training, American Bowie, American Indian long knife work, Prison Shanking techniques, Military methods like Biddle, Applegate, Fairbairn, O’Neill, Styers.
Their are still systems and styles around, some even codified as in the Manuel Del Baratoe(?) for the Navaja, or found in old military texts, a lot passed down from teacher to student, or even recreated from old military works by using hands on R&D as in the case of the older Medival and Renissance systems, such as those found in Fiore de Liberi’s Flos Duellatorium of 1410 or Das Solothurner Fechtbuch of 1423.
But the codified part is not always stuck in stone, if it works use it seems to be the motto.
If you are interested check out the following to start.
www.jameskeating.com
www.twoswords.com
www.alliancemartialarts.com
www. haca.com
Thanks for the links
I’ve already seen and read all of the alliance site (I really like the article on how boxing stances changed over the years) but the others are new to me. Many thanks.