Weng Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]And I don’t like the tone that I get from many in the VTM/HFY

You miss the point

I have a different oral history

I reserve judgment and leave it at “unproven”. [/B]

Shouldn’t you be saying…

[B]And I -CLAIM THAT I- don’t like the tone that I get from many in the VTM/HFY

-I CLAIM THAT- You miss the point

-I CLAIM THAT I- I have a different oral history

-I CLAIM THAT I- I reserve judgment and leave it at “unproven”.[/B]

I mean, since you -SEEM- to be so sincere in your assertion that anything that cannot be independently verified must ALWAYS be stated in such a way as not to imply that it is absolutely true, then how can you make such blanket authoritarian statements about your own internal monologues when they can never be accurately and independently verified?

hmmmm… OR, maybe we are just arguing semantics PAST each other and should drop the mountains out of molehills.

As far as I know, most of these arguements stem from stetements that were made years ago (or at least months and months), by people who are not even on this forum. So are we going to continue to live in the past or are we going to GET OVER IT ALREADY?

-Levi

62

Taltos, we’re talking about history, not my impressions or the failure of some people, like you, to grasp the point. These aren’t “molehills” – we’re discussing what it takes to prove historical claims, how oral tradition is not “the truth”, how it takes more to prove lineage than claims, etc. Perhaps this is obvious to someone with your profound intellect, but apparently others haven’t found it so.

63

As a matter of fact…Levi IS a pretty smart guy.

…

But again - the history/lineage arguments are overdone.

Are you coming to Cleveland, Levi?

What about you, Terence?

64

MORE JUNK!

Sandman

More personal attack junk deleted.

65

Duende/Taltos,

Why dont you guys send in a clip of yourselves doing some WCK? Let put all this politics/history/etc. on the side burner and just share! You guys are some of the most vocal of the HFY team on this board so why not share some footage of yourselves doing your Shaolin WCK so we can see how you generate power and or recieve power!

I asked Canglong but like 99% of the people I have asked to share anything they either totally ignore it (as he did) or they say its useless.

We all know how proud you guys are of your art (and rightfully so “we all are love what we do”). Why not show us some live examples of your WCK expression!

Dont be shy!

Regards,

66

Duende:

I find the existence of secret kung fu societies In China not only possible…but probable.

But because things were kept secret - much cannot be verified…

and much can be bull5hitted about.

This is a dilemma that can’t be denied.

So we can only go by what we see. And take everything else with a grain of salt.

That’s just the way it is.

You’ve got to understand that.

Don’t you?

67

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Taltos, we’re talking about history, not my impressions or the failure of some people, like you, to grasp the point. These aren’t “molehills” – we’re discussing what it takes to prove historical claims, how oral tradition is not “the truth”, how it takes more to prove lineage than claims, etc. Perhaps this is obvious to someone with your profound intellect, but apparently others haven’t found it so.

Wait. “the failure of some people, like you, to grasp the point” followed just TWO SENTENCES LATER by “Perhaps this is obvious to someone with your profound intellect”.

So which is it… did I grasp the point or didn’t I?

It has been my experience and is my opinion (my “claim,” if you will) that people who contradict themselves in the short span of THREE SENTENCES are usually not people capable of consistent, logical thought, they are simply prone to knee-jerk emotional responses when it appears they are loosing face in the public.

But since you MIGHT (no assumptions here) have misinterpreted my post, or you “with your profound intellect” understood the point, but others might not have, I’ll rephrase:

  • The contentions that SEEM to be causing this ruckus were made IN THE PAST and were made by people who are not even on this forum.

  • The HFY have, to my knowledge, NEVER made such claims.

  • The VTM may have stated their conclusions in such a way that people may have misinterpreted it, but the VTM and the HFY are two different things. For example, I am a member of my family, and I am also a member of the Arizona State Alumni Organization. I speak for neither, and if someone were to take something I said and ascribe it to the official belief of either group, the sheer rediculousness of the assertion would probably be readily apparent. Yet this seems to be the case here. But wait… if something that the VTM said is assumed to be also the official stance of the HFY, then since I, my Sifu, and my Sigung have all three studied Chi Sim and Yip Man as well, then I suppose we should consider those statements the official position of those two lineages as well. And since you studied from Chu Sifu, who studied from Hawkins Cheung Sifu, who studied from Yip Man, then don’t we agree? Oh wait… that’s right… because what one person or oranization says only applies to THEM, and not those they are associated with. THAAAAAT’S RIGHT. My Bad.

  • IF (please note the “if” because I am not assuming) the heart of your argument is that if something cannot be independently verified then it must not be stated as a fact, and the way the VTM has stated things in the past seemed to be being stated as if they were facts, then my admittedly satirical point should not be moot, and to be fair it should apply accross the board. I mean, you DO think it is not just "molehills, so we should we not take care of it now and forevermore? Otherwise, who gets to speak for everyone and decided when the rule applies and when it does not? Also, to do any less could be to argue semantics, because if it applies in one situation and not in another, then it is nothing more than a “personal truth” or a “belief” anyway, and as such fits into exactly what we are trying to avoid.

Are we going to continue to go around and around about something that happened in the past, or are we going to move past it and into productive discussion? As for me, I’m all for productive discussion.

-Levi

68

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Why dont you guys send in a clip of yourselves doing some WCK?

You guys are some of the most vocal of the HFY team on this board so why not share some footage of yourselves doing your Shaolin WCK so we can see how you generate power and or recieve power!B]

Why don’t I? Clips of me doing my WC exist. At every gathering, every friendship picnic, every seminar I’ve attended. Which, before anyone goes there, has been more than those hosted by my own school. Clips of HFY exist. I believe members of this forum who do not study HFY and are not members of the VTM has stated that they have such clips. Several of my Sisuk have participated in competitions (yes, I know… competitions) and have footage of such.

I don’t consider myself vocal OR HFY. I am a person who studies HFY, but I also study Yip Man. I represent only myself, and anything I offer is only my opinion and my understanding. As for how I generate and receive power, I do it the most effective way I can, based on my experience and my understanding, as I’m sure we all do.

I don’t understand what your requests would prove, other than that I am a real person. But I already know that…

I’ll take a look at the video footage thread and see if anything strikes me. How about that? I hope you get your answer, since it seems you’ll be taking a break from the forum. Best wishes.

-Levi Melton

69

Levi,

I don’t understand what your requests would prove, other than that I am a real person. But I already know that…

Its not about proving anything. Its about sharing and learning from each other. Using the internet as a tool for learning from each other. Viewing a clip and discussing it.

I’ll take a look at the video footage thread and seem if anything strikes me. How about that?

All I want is for the people who enjoy sharing and discussing WCK on this board to share and learn with each other. Then, instead of everyone debating with everyone, we can use the forum/net as a positive tool!

I know there is footage of HFY out there. I have seen it. BUT! As we are the members of this KFO board I thought its up to us to be the ones who share and grow with each other.

I have to run but take care all!

Time to take a break! Work work work!

:smiley:

70

Jim,

I would like nothing better than to put all this politics/history arguments aside.

We’ve been talking about putting together a little demo together to help educate the WC community as to what we are up to… So it’s in the works.

Victor,

We are in agreement.

You would think that these self-proclaimed KF historians would realize that if they truly want insider information, that they must first earn it.

Unfortunately they just want the quick fix.

71

Levi, sorry I left the emoticon off – I shouldn’t expect you to be able to read the sarcasm.

I’m glad we all agree that the HFY oral tradition is just that and nothing more – that it is not “the truth” and that it hasn’t been verified. That’s a great starting point.

72

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I’m glad we all agree that…

First of all, you don’t speak for “we all.” You speak for you, unless you have some legal document stating otherwise.

Second of all, could you do me a favor and DO NOT put words into my mouth? Here’s what I actually said:

“IF (please note the “if” because I am not assuming) the heart of your argument is that if something cannot be independently verified then it must not be stated as a fact, and the way the VTM has stated things in the past seemed to be being stated as if they were facts…”

“IF” and “SEEM” denote conditionals. I never agreed to anything of the sort that you stated I did.

It would be great if you wouldn’t lie. It makes you and you profession look bad to feed into society’s stereotypes.

-Levi

-Levi

73

No worries. My skin is thicker that Theorb seems to think.

But I’ll go ahead and do what I always do when such a statement arises…

ANYONE… please let me know if I am being unreasonable, slanderous, or engaging in personal attacks. I would really like to know, because that’s not my scene. Thanks!

-Levi

74

hey guys,
don’t listen anybody - history is a part of propaganda now

:smiley:

AMEN

75

Late to the party! and a thought!

Hello all,
I’m a little late to this post. My scheduale does not allow me more then maybe one or two nights a week to visit this forum. please excuse the delayed responses. Some of you know how that is.

Terence:
Allow me to be the first to say the HFY family has never made claims that it was the “oldest or best or most anything”. So it’s rediculous for anyone from the HFY family to defend this position that you yourself have presented. Go back a read old friend :smiley:

As said before the VTM is seperate from HFY. Also if you bother to look closer before flying off the handle. You will see that the articles that got your lacies in a bunch all say something to the affect “recent research or latest findings of the VTM etc…” before oral legend is presented or disputable information is presented. If you find this not to be the case in earlier informations we can assure that in recent and future articles and information it is presented in this way. But of course I’m not a spokes person for the VTM. just pointing out a pivital point.

Do I tell potential students that what I’m doing is the best way? Of course I do! I believe it is! To choose to do second best seems idiotic or insane at best.

I’m not the type to stand on my bio and accomplishments. However my experiences and bio confirms that my decision in lineage is a well informed decision. Is this marketing? No! I mean come on if it was about marketing I could market the Yip man lineage it would be alot easier then HFY or CS. I mean come on. You have Bruce Lee, I could use the story shared with me by GM Cheung while on the town on night in hong kong! not to mention I have had direct and personal lessons from more then 10 grand masters of this lineage. I’ve completed the Moy Yat lineage (drills,three forms,dummy,weapons) years ago. Etc… come on man master Po (from kung fu series)LOL! can see marketing is not the intention here.

As said before I’ve trained with many Grandmasters in the Yip Man lineage and other lineages alike. There is a reason I’ve choose to be in the HFY family. My Sifu has and does have a open door polocy “if you find something better it is your duty to go learn it” I’ve been with him 17 years now and it does not look like I’m leaving anytime soon. As a Sifu he has helped me go beyond just learning drills, fighting etc… I hope your Sifu does the same for you. Learning kung fu for me goes beyond history, forms, lineage and fighting etc…

As I often hear people express that you should not treat your Sifu any different then your friend etc… I disagree personally I know that a Sifu holds a huge responsiblity in guiding someones learning and thier view of this Art that we all defend an post arguement after arguement about. If a person takes that responsibility on and does not abuse it. I have nothing but respect for that person. I have nothing but respect for the student that is showing the proper respect for his. My lineage or not or even if I don’t agree with what he teaches. At the end of the day you will continue in Chu sau li (sp?) and it’s history and I will continue developement in the HFY. after that point what is your point? LOL!

It was a great honor that the HFY family has embraced me. I’m sure everyone here fells great about his/her lineage. It’s good that they do that as it shows they are doing something they believe in. With that being said I have nothing but respect for them and thier lineages. I find it sad that in this state of your kung fu training you do not have the same feelings of respect for other lineages.

Others:
A video clip is limited and can be picked a part objectively. It would seem to be more like being held up for target practice if you ask me. I could be wrong but that seems it would be the case here. I hope to see you at the get together in May. First hand experience is always best. Plus if you do a video theme music is a must! and who could choose? LOL!

As stated before I plan on attending in may! I look forward to see some of you there. And the others well I guess I will just see you there. LOL!

Chango
:wink:

76

taltos,

Once again you miss the sarcasm – to spell it out, I was sure you didn’t agree with my “propositions” (HFY oral tradition is simply oral tradition and nothing more), and that was my point: without verification that’s all that it can be.

Chango,

There are several problems just saying things like “recent research or the latest findings of the VTM” – we’re not told what that research entailed, what specific info was “uncovered”, where it came from, what makes the VTM think it credible, how it is used to reach conclusions, etc. Moreoever, it suggests the research is more than getting HFY oral tradition from Garrett and writing it up as “history.” And, I’m sorry but I think in most people’s eyes the VTM and HFY are synonymous – Benny is the VTM, and Benny is a disciple of HFY, and there is an overlap of others as well. When Benny/VTM writes articles promoting HFY oral tradition as “true history” with the preamble of “recent research or the latest findings of the VTM”, there is no distinguishing the two. Perhaps you now see that the VTM is recognized not an unbiased research group but a HFY promotional unit. They’ve done that to themselves.

77

Chango,

You hit on some themes and values that ring strongly with me - self-determination, gratitude, and respect for others among them. Some things are more important than the martial art we practice. To deny our humanness is to deny who we are. To expect everyone to share the same perspective is folly. To be inconsistent with our own values in any endeavor is schizophrenic.

Nicely done.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
78

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Once again you miss the sarcasm.

And once again you seem to be making assumptions. Prove to me that I missed the sarcasm and that I wasn’t simply ignoring the sarcasm in favor of pointing out that the way you were presenting your information (i.e. stating things that simply aren’t true) is EXACTLY what you are accusing the VTM of doing. Oh, that’s right… you CAN’T.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
to spell it out, I was sure you didn’t agree with my “propositions”

That’s not what you said. You stated that I agreed with you. Again, it would be great if you wouldn’t lie. It makes you and you profession look bad to feed into society’s stereotypes. If the VTM is held to some standard of diction, surely a Lawyer is as well? I’m sure you could respect and understand that. In fact, you could help everyone here by explaining how statements (official or otherwise) should be made so as to avoid misleading anyone. Like, for example, saying that people agree with you when they don’t.

I’ve noticed that if I make more than one point, and some are specific and more charged than others, you gloss over those in favor of vague and dismissive statements about my inability to understand, and when I point out that you are making misleading or erroneous statements, you dismiss it as sarcasm. Why is that? Why ignore the points made and try to backpedal and pull heartstrings? It seems to me that to do that is to demonstrate disdain for the communicative process.

Again, here are the main points I was making. Maybe this time we could actually address them?

  • The contentions that SEEM to be causing this ruckus were made IN THE PAST and were made by people who are not even on this forum.

  • The HFY have, to my knowledge, NEVER made such claims.

  • The VTM MAY have stated their conclusions in such a way that people MAY have misinterpreted it. My Sibak Chango has just informed us that that’s not how it was intended, and assured us that in the future, steps will be taken to ensure such statements are properly qualified.

  • The VTM and the HFY are two different things. For example, I am a member of my family, and I am also a member of the Arizona State Alumni Organization. I speak for neither, and if someone were to take something I said and ascribe it to the official belief of either group, the sheer rediculousness of the assertion would probably be readily apparent. Yet this seems to be the case here. I don’t know of another way to get this point across than to keep saying it.

  • What else can be done other than what has been done, namely, clarifying what was meant and stating that measures will be taken to avoid that in the future?

  • Are we going to continue to go around and around about something that happened in the past, or are we going to move past it and into productive discussion?

-Levi

79

“I’m sorry but I think in most people’s eyes the VTM and HFY are synonymous – Benny is the VTM, and Benny is a disciple of HFY, and there is an overlap of others as well. When Benny/VTM writes articles promoting HFY oral tradition as “true history” with the preamble of “recent research or the latest findings of the VTM”, there is no distinguishing the two.” (Terence)

Terence is very accurate with this statement…Chango, Levi.

And furthermore…isn’t Benny Meng more than just a disciple - but a “Master”…or something? Within the system? Don’t I have a magazine article somewhere all about Benny being taken as the NO. 1 disciple of Garrett Gee…or something?

You know I do. You guys probably have that magazine issue in a draw somewhere yourselves.

What’s the point?

If you’re loyal to…and satisfied with…the HFY system - and to Garrett Gee - that’s one thing.

But the marketing thing has been excessive.

Why continue to defend that part of it?

Let it go.

Chango is on the right track…Come to Cleveland…let’s all get together and workout.

That’s the best Wing Chun marketing of all.

80

To be fair…

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“I’m sorry but I think in most people’s eyes the VTM and HFY are synonymous – Benny is the VTM, and Benny is a disciple of HFY, and there is an overlap of others as well. When Benny/VTM writes articles promoting HFY oral tradition as “true history” with the preamble of “recent research or the latest findings of the VTM”, there is no distinguishing the two.” (Terence)

Terence is very accurate with this statement…Chango, Levi.[/B]

OK. And as I said to Terrence, “The VTM and the HFY are two different things. I don’t know of another way to get this point across than to keep saying it.” What exactly can be done except to say it over and over to get the point across “in most people’s eyes”?

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
And furthermore…isn’t Benny Meng more than just a disciple - but a “Master”…or something? Within the system? Don’t I have a magazine article somewhere all about Benny being taken as the NO. 1 disciple of Garrett Gee…or something?

He IS a Disciple, and he was the first disciple taken in his generation (I actually attended the event). The “Master” title stems from his martial accomplishments (completing the Yip Man System and the fact that he has students that have reached Sifu Level – see the other thread for info on that).

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]What’s the point?

If you’re loyal to…and satisfied with…the HFY system - and to Garrett Gee - that’s one thing.

But the marketing thing has been excessive.[/B]

I don’t understand. Honestly, I am not trying to do anything other than to clarify. My posts come in three varieties:

  1. General posts about my WC experiences (in Yip Man, Chi Sim, AND HFY).

  2. Answering questions that people have (admittedly most of these questions are about HFY).

  3. Pointing out when people are not being consistent in their application of rules or standards.

Since I have far more experience in the Yip Man System, and I currently study both, why is it that when I say something I am speaking for HFY and not Yip Man? I mean, to be fair shouldn’t I be speaking for both? I try VERY hard to speak for ME (and I say it in almost every post), but it doesn’t seem to sink in. No one says that you speak for the entire TWC organization, and rightly so. Your views are your views. Mine are mine. Why the distinction for me but not for anyone else?

All I’m after is people speaking for themselves. How great would that be?

As for the marketing thing, I can only point out that you said “has been” and rightly so. That’s the past. And like I said before, “The VTM MAY have stated their conclusions in such a way that people MAY have misinterpreted it. My Sibak Chango has just informed us that that’s not how it was intended, and assured us that in the future, steps will be taken to ensure such statements are properly qualified. What else can be done other than what has been done, namely, clarifying what was meant and stating that measures will be taken to avoid that in the future? Are we going to continue to go around and around about something that happened in the past, or are we going to move past it and into productive discussion?”

Seriously, all we have to do is drop it and it’s over. Not play “who can get the last dig in.” I have tried very hard to stick to the issues and not get all uppity. Let’s walk away from it.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Why continue to defend that part of it?

Let it go.[/B]

I am not defending ANYTHING. I am simply pointing out that the issue has been clarified numerous times, but keeps being revisited. I am VERY happy that most of the WC practicioners of today have decided to move past the William Cheung/Emin Boztepe fiasco and not continually revisit it. It was the past, and we have moved on for the better. I just wish we could do the same here.

Thank you for your perspective Parlati Sifu. It does go a long way towards creating a better understanding of where you are coming from.

And I agree with you last statement. Let’s just let it go and move past it. I’m game if the rest of the crew is.

-Levi