What do you guys think about the use of attacks to limbs in chi sau? In chi gerk, this idea is self evident.However attacking the arms this way seems to be seen as poor sport. What cha all think?
Sooooo, we have the jip sau of course, with its various uses but I think direct limb attack is under used in VT. Attack the attack. Is this a stale topic?
Bil gee uses the limb attack. I have injured boxers wrists , forearms easily so I have to tone down so I don’t damage people. Gaan sao to a wrist / forearm is damaging. Jum sao too. Our punch forearm angle can cause forearm injuries if blocks are attempted. A lot if this is incidental. But arm chasing shouldnt be pursued to achieve this.
Bil gee uses the limb attack. I have injured boxers wrists , forearms easily so I have to tone down so I don’t damage people. Gaan sao to a wrist / forearm is damaging. Jum sao too. Our punch forearm angle can cause forearm injuries if blocks are attempted. A lot of this is incidental. Arm chasing shouldnt be pursued to achieve this.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1245539]What do you guys think about the use of attacks to limbs in chi sau? In chi gerk, this idea is self evident.However attacking the arms this way seems to be seen as poor sport. What cha all think?[/QUOTE]
That’s reasonably basic kung fu knowledge. All southern CMA do it.
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1245624]That’s reasonably basic kung fu knowledge. All southern CMA do it.[/QUOTE]
yes and the Philipino arts as well - including weapons. “De-fanging the snake” is a common expression there for attacking a hand holding a weapon.
Depending on how hard your opponent strikes when you deflect their attack your short power should cause a jolt of pain in their arm…the harder they swing or punch the more damage they will incur. We also utilize gaurding raking techniques for people who like to keep their hands covering their face as well as pak da and some other downward back fist strikes.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1245632]yes and the Philipino arts as well - including weapons. “De-fanging the snake” is a common expression there for attacking a hand holding a weapon.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Kevin on this one. A lot of techniques will cause limb damage incidentally. But if you make that your intent, you will chase hands.
Forget that whole “defanging the snake” thing. When we found a rattler near the corrals at my grandad’s ranch, we didn’t chase it and try to pull out it’s fangs. We just grabbed a shovel and smashed it’s head.
The same is true in the Escrima I learned, as well as the VT I practice. Sure some of the techniques in both arts can be damaging to the limbs, but the whole our objective is always the “center of command”. Shut that down and it’s all over.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1245651]I agree with Kevin on this one. A lot of techniques will cause limb damage incidentally. But if you make that your intent, you will chase hands.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s more of a “this is available right now so I’ll do it” vs something you go into the situation looking to do. At least as far as WC is concerned.
A white crane guy i used to spar had this as a major strategy, it really made me rethink the usefulness of bai jong when you consider how available of a target it is.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1245651]Forget that whole “defanging the snake” thing. When we found a rattler near the corrals at my grandad’s ranch, we didn’t chase it and try to pull out it’s fangs. We just grabbed a shovel and smashed it’s head.
The same is true in the Escrima I learned, as well as the VT I practice. Sure some of the techniques in both arts can be damaging to the limbs, but the whole our objective is always the “center of command”. Shut that down and it’s all over.[/QUOTE]
Actually with a bladed weapon, or a stick, there are many contact angles where you can slide straight down a block and attack a hand. Not chasing it at all. And the better guys will disarm someone with this type of strike, playing off a blocking impact and changing directions sliding down to attack the hand holding the weapon.
But sure, we should forget the whole thing. I’m sure Remy Presas and all the other
arnis instructors all have got it wrong, as they haven’t studied VT. Dan Inosanto as well.
I kind of agree with the Geez. Why hit the opponent’s arms when you can hit his head? Under certain circumstances it might work. Hawkins Cheung (being a small person) has taught a progressive striking of the arm of a much bigger opponent as he moved in close enough to hit him in the head. But if you are in Chi Sao range, you are already close enough to hit him in the head!
And its not that the FMA guys wrong, its just a different approach. The whole “defanging the snake” concept in FMA comes from weapons fighting, where it makes sense to attack the hand/arm holding the weapon in order to keep the weapon under control.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1245663]Actually with a bladed weapon, or a stick, there are many contact angles where you can slide straight down a block and attack a hand. Not chasing it at all. And the better guys will disarm someone with this type of strike, playing off a blocking impact and changing directions sliding down to attack the hand holding the weapon.
But sure, we should forget the whole thing. I’m sure Remy Presas and all the other
arnis instructors all have got it wrong, as they haven’t studied VT. Dan Inosanto as well.[/QUOTE]
Defanging the snake only works when you have your own weapon to do it with. Even the hotshot fma guys can rarely do it unarmed against a weapon.
[QUOTE=KPM;1245672]I kind of agree with the Geez. Why hit the opponent’s arms when you can hit his head? Under certain circumstances it might work. Hawkins Cheung (being a small person) has taught a progressive striking of the arm of a much bigger opponent as he moved in close enough to hit him in the head. But if you are in Chi Sao range, you are already close enough to hit him in the head!
And its not that the FMA guys wrong, its just a different approach. The whole “defanging the snake” concept in FMA comes from weapons fighting, where it makes sense to attack the hand/arm holding the weapon in order to keep the weapon under control.[/QUOTE]
Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. Of course I know evidence of actual fighting counts for so very very little around here especially when we can think of how it should work.
The reason to hit the arms is simple it is a tactic and gosh a tactic what a concept lol that can do several things from lowering his guard to obstructing his potential strikes to interrupting his set ups to all those things guys who do not spar never think or care about. So if you do not spar or fight it makes little sense when you think all you need to do is hit the guy in the head. They usually just stand there and let you after all. Even boxers use this tactic. Too bad no one told them about hitting the guy in the head.
Kyokushin has interesting use of striking limbs intentionally. It is common for them to snipe the same spot on the forearm or wrist, it only takes a couple well placed shots for the arm to start getting raw. Then it starts to drop to end the bruising.
The trouble with this method is it is only useful if your opponent keeps a “textbook” style guard, (like you would expect from a trained fighter.) This is one of the rare methods that actually is of little use with MMA gloves and almost no use with boxing gloves, but it is a worthwhile strategy in its’ time and place.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1245682]Kyokushin has interesting use of striking limbs intentionally. It is common for them to snipe the same spot on the forearm or wrist, it only takes a couple well placed shots for the arm to start getting raw. Then it starts to drop to end the bruising.
The trouble with this method is it is only useful if your opponent keeps a “textbook” style guard, (like you would expect from a trained fighter.) This is one of the rare methods that actually is of little use with MMA gloves and almost no use with boxing gloves, but it is a worthwhile strategy in its’ time and place.[/QUOTE]
And to add, boxers will also punch arms and shoulders
Weapon attack / Desstruction in Chi Sau
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1245539]What do you guys think about the use of attacks to limbs in chi sau? In chi gerk, this idea is self evident.However attacking the arms this way seems to be seen as poor sport. What cha all think?[/QUOTE]
Why not ? You first jam your opponents’ hands , then you move in with kicking attack to his limbs .
[QUOTE=tc101;1245678]Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. Of course I know evidence of actual fighting counts for so very very little around here especially when we can think of how it should work.
The reason to hit the arms is simple it is a tactic and gosh a tactic what a concept lol that can do several things from lowering his guard to obstructing his potential strikes to interrupting his set ups to all those things guys who do not spar never think or care about. So if you do not spar or fight it makes little sense when you think all you need to do is hit the guy in the head. They usually just stand there and let you after all. Even boxers use this tactic. Too bad no one told them about hitting the guy in the head.[/QUOTE]
I never know where you are coming from. Do you just try to be the “contrarian” in every single discussion?? 
Do you actually think that a solid strike to an opponent’s unprotected weapon hand with a stick or blade wouldn’t be a fight stopper? I would have expected you to jump in with saying that striking the arms in Chi Sao is armchair BS when one should be just striking to the head…like Boxers do! Yet you say the opposite.
[QUOTE=KPM;1245711]I never know where you are coming from. Do you just try to be the “contrarian” in every single discussion??
[/QUOTE]
Do not be confused let me explain I am not being a contrarian I just do not like arm chair opinions.
Come to think about it I am not sure you know what I mean by arm chair. Arm chair is when your opinion is based on thinking rather than actual experience. In this case you think that hitting the hand is 1 a good possibility and 2 a fight ender. That is what the guys who think they can bite or eye poky their way out of the ground. You both think this is how things work but and this is the important but but you think that from the safety of your arm chair. In neither instance is the opinion based on 1 what you yourself see from actually doing it or 2 see yourself from others actually doing it too. Arm chair is it works on paper. Experience is I am doing it and it works or me and others.
Do you actually think that a solid strike to an opponent’s unprotected weapon hand with a stick or blade wouldn’t be a fight stopper?
No it is not a fight stopper it happens all the time by accident let me repeat by accident in training and in stick fighting and it doesn’t end the fight.
the important thing is that you will not see it intentionally used often in genuine stick fights since it is incredibly difficult to hit an opponent’s hand so difficult that it makes this tactic virtually useless except in certain situations. This is why I referred you to the dog bros fights you can see that for yourself.
I would have expected you to jump in with saying that striking the arms in Chi Sao is armchair BS when one should be just striking to the head…like Boxers do! Yet you say the opposite.
Chi sau is practicing wing chun movement or actions or techniques to get better at performing those actions. If you are going to use something in fighting you can practice it in chi sau. You don’t punch to the head in chi sau do you?
[QUOTE=tc101;1245678]Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. Of course I know evidence of actual fighting counts for so very very little around here especially when we can think of how it should work. [/QUOTE]
Defanging the snake works great if you are doing it with a weapon. The reason you don’t see it in the dog brothers is because most of the time they are wearing hockey gloves.
[QUOTE=tc101;1245678]Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. [/QUOTE]
The Dog Brothers…haha