I’ve noticed some lineages impose “rules” (for lack of a better term) for Chi Sao. One I see often is that people only strike to the chest ignoring the head or outer gates. So what’s up? It looks to me like this would breed bad habits. Opinions?
sometimes those rules are for practice – a sternum can take a lot more contact than a neck, and sometimes they’re for technical benefit, as trying to punch someone in the nose when you’re on the outside gets you wedged off quicker than you can say, “uh-oh, that ****'s gonna hurt.”
BeiKongHui,
I know what you mean, i see people put the stupid rules in chi-sau to avoid doing it properly!! I like to see everything employed, like a good Bill Gee to the eyes to start with in my rolling. Followed by elbow strikes to the kneck, then just for good measure i grab both of their arms and start to repeadly head butt them!!!
…oh hang on, that has nothing to do with chi sau. Chi sau is not about hitting! (well it is but it isn’t..make sence?..good!)
Hi BeiKongHui,
We use that rule you mentioned as beginners. It is much harder to trap and hit someones chest than their head. It is also less dangerous for people who have not developed the necessary skills to participate in Gor Sau.
wcfish, happy new year & i hope all is well.
‘One I see often is that people only strike to the chest ignoring the head or outer gates’
i will only refer to the head here.
striking the head is actually lazy & is what will develop bad technique. the centre is much harder to hit & will also make sure you use correct elbow positioning & will also allow for greater control of your partner. if you can constantly control your chi sao partner through their chest then hitting anyone in the head becomes mere childs play.
i’m sure that there are plenty who will disagree but that is only through a lack of understanding, again don’t get me wrong as the head is still a target in chi sao & i have often attacked there as well but it is different when you have the reason to do so.
can i just say that not attacking the head is not a rule that we impose when playing chi sao it’s just the different way we look at things, you may be different.
vts
Chi sau is not a fight. It is an exercise. An exercise has certain guidelines so as to optimize the benefits of that exercise.
If there are no “rules”'/guidelines in chi sau, then why not just spar?
i think vingtsunstudent is basically right–in focusing on the chest you focus on the center. Reactions are triggered as attacks deviate from the center (high, low, outer gates). This is not an arbitrary rule, though! If you box to defend your standing structure and disrupt somebody else’s standing structure (while inflicting damage on various vulnerable sites, of course), then you can’t ignore the center–from the sternum to the dan-tien–in chi-sao training.
but chi-sao shouldn’t become an “ideal world” meditation. if you want to save your ass, then you shouldn’t ignore anything–from your head to your neck to your knees. random high, low, and outer-gate strikes, with or without continuous contact, should never be neglected in our training. it would be suicide if we ignored these. that means we should be able to deal with them during chi-sao. but that doesn’t mean that defending/attacking the center in chi-sao training should be de-emphasized.
Of course there must be some rules for beginners. It is a sorry sight when people just begining chi-sao is trying to mimic the experienced sihings and the outcome is mix between a cat-fight and swimming. You have to learn to crawl before bla, bla…
Happy new year to you too VTS,
All is well down here.
I must agree with you when you say that not attacking the head is not a “rule” which we enforce, but rather something we try and do. If it were a rule then I would be a bit annoyed about all the times I’ve been smacked in the head! As it is I just know my defence needs work. Mind you, so does everything else.
i can’t use chest hits much
I chi sau with girls a lot to improve my sensitivity.
one thing i find with doing it with the girls is that chest strikes are not an option, especially if they are a little well-built around the area.
just anatomical not sexist before i get accused.
The head can always be had.
Since chi sau is a learning exercise, why not work on what you cannot do, rather than what you can do.
When learning chi sao it is advisable to have certain “rules” to avoid injuries. When I do chi sao with a partner we first agree what we can and cannot do. For example: only open palm strikes are allowed for head strikes while closed fist strikes are allowed in the body. The rules may change from partner to partner depending on the level of expertise.
and we wonder why Wing Chun people can’t fight.:rolleyes:
Wing Chun=not fight
Hello BeiKongHui,
I guess some people wonder why Wing Chun people can’t fight. However, I doubt that any who have met people like, Emin Boztepe, Rick Spain, Alf Debroco(sp) etc would ask the same question. Going a little further back in time to the fights in the 50’s and 60’s it would seem that Wing Chun established quite a reputation for “fighting”. Of course today the problem could be a lack of dedicated training, I know I don’t train as hard or as often as I should 
. Perhaps you could elaborate in a bit more detail as I am sure there are plenty of Wing Chun people who can fight, just as there are many who can’t. Who have you trained with which leads you to this conclusion?
Peace,
Dave
Originally posted by whippinghand
[B]Chi sau is not a fight. It is an exercise. An exercise has certain guidelines so as to optimize the benefits of that exercise.
If there are no “rules”'/guidelines in chi sau, then why not just spar? [/B]
Whipping hand has hit the nail on the head: Chi Sau is NOT sparring. Now, that doesn’t mean you should neccessarily avoid any particular target, but that you should be more concerned with learning to feel openings and sense structural flaws than beating someone up. I’ll aim for the head as well as the body, but I’m not trying to clobber anyone when I do so. There should be sparring, but not during Chi Sau. Just my opinion…
chi sau is NOT sparring
its a stepping stone to sparring
first, you start off with one handed chi sau… then you progress to two handed - now you are by no means close to sparring
things need to build up
then you throw in chi gerk, another exercise, NOT sparring
then you throw in various entering exercises, NOT sparring
then you spar (as far as i know)
all these various exercises lead up to you being able to fight well; and allow you to spar with your partner - and have some control (and not end up killing anyone)
i think people are very eager to think they know how to fight - and since theyve been doing wing chun for a few years (and still are only doing chi sau) they assume that thats all there is to it…
well chi sau is only two of your appendages - theres a lot more to go
peace
travis
Hmmm, I come to this conclusion because I have sparred or Chi sao’ed with many YM lineages and other non YM lineages. I find that those who chi sao only usually have a very unrealistic view of combat as they haven’t taken the next step into sparring. The worst is people who only hit to the chest (for various reasons/excuses) when pressed with a head attack they often are unable to defend themselves because they’ve never had to deal with even low power attacks to the head.
For a much better and more exact argument against the use of such “rules” in Chi Sao read David Peterson’s new WSL book. It pretty well spells it out for you.
Also, for those of you who are worried about rules for beginners, well of course, but that’s not the point should some one with 10 years of experience still be hiding behind those rules?
Sihing-You’ve been around long enough to know that in reality maybe 1 in 1000 WC people have the combat skills your average MMA, boxing, Muay Thai guy has. I’m sure most of it is that most of us have jobs and can’t train full time but a lot has to do with unrealistic training methods and false expectations based on the past accomplishments of our ancestors.
Tomhands-Yes, thank you. Too many people want that ideal world thing.
tjd-I would have to say that I see Chi Sao (like most everything in WC)for the whole body.
The rest of you guys keep on keepin’ on.
chi sau for the whole body
now… i agree somewhat
you do use the whole body in chi sau thats for sure - but you use it to fuel your hands
in the end, it only comes down to what your doing with those two appendages
even though you are using your body to back it up, you have to learn how to apply the same things to your kicks and entering skills, and headbutts, shoulders, knees, and elbows (depends), and everything not allowed by the rules in chi sau
sure it trains the whole body - but only in use of the hands
just like chi gerk trains the whole body - but in the use of the feet
if you only do chi sau, no matter how good you are it still wont give your legs any sensitivity or power, even tho you are using them to chi sau
see where im going?
peace
travis
tjd- Point taken.
Combat Skill
Hello BeiKongHui,
I am not sure that I would agree with the figure 1 in 1000 as having “real combat skills”. I guess we can agree that it all comes down to the manner one is taught and one practices. There are quite a few martial artists, not just Wing Chun, who never fully comprehend the combat aspects of their chosen art. The only advantage Muay Thai may have is the conditioning as a part of the training. Boxers train to give and take blows so there is contact from day one. This helps them to be realisitic as they are not unaccustomed to hitting and being hit. However, if one trains for combat then one will develope the attributes for combat.
I would tend to agree that a good percentage of Wing Chun schools do not train for combat or street situations. However, those that do can and will produce quite formidable exponents of the art. The names I mentioned previously are only a few examples of Wing Chun people who can fight. A lot will come down to the student and what they want out of the art. If they are willing to put in the effort then they can be quite as “dangerous” as any Muay Thai fighter or Boxer out there. Of course, there is also a mental aspect which comes into play as well. I have defeated more skillful people than myself due to them giving up. I remember sparring a guy with sticks; he actually disarmed me but lost because I kept fighting and he was unprepared for that. In his mind I had no weapon he had won. In my mind, I had no weapon so I fought harder. After all I want to go home at night ;).
My background may be a little different than some who take up Wing Chun. Not better or worse just different. My first Wing Chun instructor taught me to attack four target areas; 1) Eyes 2) Throat 3) Groin 4) Kneecaps. Anything else was secondary. He described Wing Chun as a posoinous snake, to be used to kill the opponent. Basically, if the threat was not great enough to kill for you had no reason to fight. After he returned to Hong Kong I entered the Army and after that worked as a Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philly, worked in a County Prison and then as a PA State Trooper. I am certainly not the baddest person around, there are many much better than I, but I can tell you from experience that Wing Chun works! I can also tell you that my students are taught realistic techniques not crap. But again, there are many better than me around. This is why I know that just as there is bad Wing Chun there is also very good Wing Chun. Sometimes you just got to dig deeper to find it.
As to Chi Sau and the ability to fight; I have previously given my view on this. I actually, shudder to think of it :rolleyes: , agree with what Whipping Hand said, oh the pain:p . Chi Sau is not fighting. A person skilled in Chi Sau may have attributes which could carry over to make them a formidable foe but it does not mean they can fight.
Peace,
Dave