WCK Origin theories?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Hi Joy,

((Sun Tzu’s conception informs good kung fu- but particularly informs wing chun. Some key wing chun kuen kuit follows from Sun Tzu))

The uniqueness of using SHAPE and MOMENTUM dynamic is very clear in Sun Tzu.

“Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail) “Gum Chong Gan Bil/Pil Bong Folk” (press the center shoot out bong or folk (compare this to the sun tzu qout above)

((hendrik: is that a Cho family kuit? Do you have a tan concept in
Cho family?))

The Kuit above is general in different place include Hong Kong. If memory serve, there is one WCK movie in the 1970 even uses these kuit.

Today’s TAN is a combination of a number of different concept in Yik Kam WCK.

For example, interm of physical location, Tan’s palm end at heart level. and Chao’s palm end at solder lever. Which both was named Tan in general WCK today…ect.

((Hendrik- unfortunately without specific guidance or very
clear two way communication- the Surangama can sound like gibberish and be replaced unfortunately by a follow the leader
ethic or a cult.
Further, there is always the danger of solipsism- of mistaking/projecting one’s subjective understanding as the only real world.))

That is true.
Chan/esoteric Buddhism,
Even Say, Sun Tzu, one has to learn from teacher. Otherwise, one will inteprete the text with one’s own level which can be way off. As we see in Spiral Dynamic, that people in level 1 will base on level 1 as thier lense to view the world.

Zim,

it is Miu Shun.

42

Sensing, Antena, Awareness, connection, Communication?

---------------------Antena and POwer to power connection?

With Fujianess art around 1850, Bridge or kiu was defined as fore arm.
Join or Jit was defined as elbow or knee.

thus, there are 4 kuit for bridge status
and various of bridge technics such as 10…

the 4 kuits are:

1, If there is bridge then one cross the bridge on top. ( the key is cross)

2, if the is no bridge then one adding the bridge. ( the key is add)

3, Seeing bridge thus breaking bridge. ( the key is break)

4, Stick at bridge not leaving bridge. ( the key is stick or Chi as in Chi sau)

-----------------Go wireless, Awareness, communication, Information gathering, communication jamming?

AWARENESS is very important. AWARENESS is not limited to physical stick or CHI, or one Bridge to sense. As said,
The physical can be broken contact but the AWARENESS/ intention never broke down.

Thus, another component beside the physical, location, speed is about COMMUNICATION.

One can brake the opponent down via force or one can brake the opponents’ interio COMMUNICATION down to direct or indirectly breaking the DYnamic Structure. (VEry High TECH of this imformation era :D)

As said in Sun Tzu:

  1. Those who were called skillful leaders of old knew
    how to drive a wedge between the enemy’s front and rear;
    to prevent co-operation between his large and small divisions;
    to hinder the good troops from rescuing the bad,…
43

Good post, Hendrik! You’re really jamming now. Ha! Ha!

44

Hi Paul,

Now you know why it is called : PILLOWING the BRIDGE? Or JUM KIU? or Jamming … :smiley: (by the way how is your pillow training? :D)

See there are four ways. 1, go power routh, Take the battery off. 2, go communication routh, screw up the signal. and the 3, go center to center routh, reset the cell phone’s gsm id card. 4, break the structure routh, slam the cell phone to floor. :D.

From Sun Tzu to Surangama awareness to white crane to emei to cell phone :smiley:

When everything put/fuse together,
Here is Wing Chun and her center to center connection :smiley:

45

The four routes are good! In my cellular war, I use just 2 options. One: He tries to reach but can’t quite pin my cell number down. Two: Regardless of whether he can reach me or not on my old cell, I just use a new cell to reach him. He never really connects either way! See Ya!

P.S. Speaking wirelessly, this is just a variation of doing your center to center method. As to the pillow, to hold or not to hold that is the question! All is pillowing as it should be.

46

(((Attachment: killbill_11.jpg
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).))

— should also incorporate Chinese opera acting into WC :smiley:

sinking shoulders and elbows are required in order to play those big, long, hanging sleeves right.

47

update General summary

WCK

Style Philosophy:
------- Sun Tzu

Ie: water without same shape, dynamic potential, snake of Chang MT , 5 elements’ (give birth, against, neutral, tranformation), Jaming communication to set up chaos, helplessness…,

Core Style implementation:

–Write Crane of Fujian,

ie: center line theory, sun potential, 5 elements hands shape, two arms operation methodolody, inch JIng Join power, and application technics such as Bo Bai… ect.

—Emei 12 Post (Buddhist (esoteric)/Daoist/TCM),

ie: equal shoulder width stance structure with medirians flow, gradual ocean “surf” ( snake moving) soft method training, sticky and jing issuing ( enegy/awareness ) development – 36 jings and applications, foot work such as forward and reverse 7 stars step .

48

Don’t forget my all time favorite WC Baat Jaam Do saint - Mushashi, Hendrik! His strokes are just right and fearless. His gaze would unclothe all your naked intentions. And his method: Learn directly from the wild nature (Mountain, I think!) and fields of combat. He is a true WC caveman in every elemental sense of the word! His back to nature call may well be unorthodox and uneducated to the sophistry of our modern days but who can argue against his successful exploits?

49

Originally posted by PaulH
Don’t forget my all time favorite WC Baat Jaam Do saint - Mushashi, Hendrik! His strokes are just right and fearless. His gaze would unclothe all your naked intentions. And his method: Learn directly from the wild nature (Mountain, I think!) and fields of combat. He is a true WC caveman in every elemental sense of the word! His back to nature call may well be unorthodox and uneducated to the sophistry of our modern days but who can argue against his successful exploits?

what you just describe is a description of an enlightent Zen monk’s behavior while doing martial art.

Book similar to the Unfettered Mind is just a book trying to explain about Chan in the Samurai sword fighting term. read it carefully and you shall see.

IMHO, Chan or Zen is training for developing attentive and vast awareness kind of mind. It says nothing about philosophy or methodology of operation of an art or a task.

If one doesn’t have a philosophy or methodology, the vast awareness mind is great but it will sit there and do nothing.

Say, if the Buddha comes to alive today. If he wants to use a Personal Computer, he has to learn the philosophy of Window, how to use it, train to get fluent on it. otherwise, disregards of how enlightent he is he will not be able to use a computer.

Certainly, with the enligthement mind of him, he can learn things very fast and can master and even sees flaws in the computer application … even fastest and better then normal person or computer expert. But, he has to learn the Way of the computer before his enlightement mind can applied to the full potential.

The elevator name Chan to the top of the mountain of Mastering Computer is for VIP such as the patriach or who have the mindseal only. We have to go step by step using stair. Sorry to disappoint you. But, atleast, I try to tell you where the stair is and not waiting to get enlightement before riding that elevator to the top. what if one doesn’t get enligtement or get the mindseal? So, we all line up and stuck infront of the vip elevator?

Historicaly, writing in some Shao Lin book, some Ming generals did hide in Shao Lin or Buddhist temple trying to activate this Chan elevator for advance spiritual penetration martial arts Mountain to counter Qing. that is a fact. But were they success? or some end up become real Buddhist monk give up martial art and preaching no fighting ?

if they succeed then Qing was overthrown. But, the saga of Qing continous…

Just my two cents.

50

Hendrik,

Amid your posts, you raise a very interesting point:

For those who believe WCK was created to overthrow the Qing, knowing the Qing were not overthrown, do you then believe WCK to be a failure?

51

Hendrik,

Maybe I’m wrong, but Mushashi seemed to advocate learning by experience and devoting oneself wholehearted to the way. The “Spirit” of the thing will reveal the rest! I don’t see him mentioning anything about Zen training in his book. What he wrote to his students came out directly from his life and experience. In fact, I think he mentioned somewhere in the book of 5 rings that he did not borrow any confucius or Zen teachings when he tried to relate his way to his followers. So I’m not sure of the idea that he was an enlightened Zen monk prior to practicing MA. More than likely, Zen achievement was a by-product as he reach the end of his MA road to emptiness.

Anyway, your point of Buddha and the computer system is logical. I see no wrong so it must be right! Ha! Ha!

52

Pual,

Read my post again. I mention the Unflettered Mind but not Mushashi right? :smiley:

to advocate learning by experience and devoting oneself wholehearted to the way --P

is that very Zen? :smiley:

In fact, I think he mentioned somewhere in the book of 5 rings that he did not borrow any confucius or Zen teachings when he tried to relate his way to his followers. —P

Sure, that is in the begining of his book.
he is writing about his art of sword, the 5 rings philosophy and implementation. not a Zen book.
as I try to uncover for WCK if possible.
Even Buddha has to learn Window and practice in typing keyboard right? computer instructor has to write about that. :smiley:

But, You have to be real carefull here. What is Mushashi Pray to? Kanon? KwanYin with thousand hands? What is his core behind the two knives , one long one short, cut like fire… :smiley:

A Buddhist monk of 1900’s , Hung Yee, he is a play boy, musician, he play opera , he get enligtement while dancing.
After enlightement, he go straight to be a monk.
So, everything can triggle enlightenment doesn’t has to be only via Zen or OM OM OM everyday.

53

That’s great, Hendrik! He is fire incarnated indeed, but he suddued it when he got hold at last the empty ring that bind all rings! So having a fire ring is okay along the quest! Ha! Ha!

54

this not just in

originally posted by hendrik
if they succeed then Qing was overthrown. But, the saga of Qing continous…

originally posted by rene ritchie
For those who believe WCK was created to overthrow the Qing, knowing the Qing were not overthrown, do you then believe WCK to be a failure?

External aggression and domestic oppression sparked off a series of anti-feudal and anti-imperialist movements such as the Taiping Rebellion and the Nian Army Uprising. Under these circumstances, the Qing government was forced to introduce reforms, such as the Self-strengthening Movement and the Hundred-Day Reform, in effort to save and revitalize China. All measures that were doomed to fail. In the end the Revolution of 1911, led by Dr. Sun Yat-sen, enabled the Chinese people to overthrow the Qing imperialists who had ruled China for 268 years.
Newsflash… For those that were unaware.

55

External aggression and domestic oppression sparked off a series of anti-feudal and anti-imperialist movements such as the Taiping Rebellion and the Nian Army Uprising. ----------

TaiPing Rebellion = anti-feudal and anti-imperialist ?
What system is implemented in TaiPing heavenly Kingdom?

TaiPing = Shao LIn ?
What is the religion of TaiPing’s Son of GOD?
Why is TaiPing did not bond tightly with The Triad? Religion issues?

What is the title of Lee Man Mau when he passed away?
What Kingdom is he belongs to? Ming? or A new starts up Kingdom?

All measures that were doomed to fail. In the end the Revolution of 1911, led by Dr. Sun Yat-sen, enabled the Chinese people to overthrow the Qing imperialists who had ruled China for 268 years. -----

Sun Yat-Sen = Shao LIn?
What religion Sun Yat-Sen believe in?

56

For those who believe WCK was created to overthrow the Qing, knowing the Qing were not overthrown, do you then believe WCK to be a failure?

I’d have to say no, otherwise we’d all look a right bunch of charlies, wouldn’t we?

There are many more obvious paths to failure than choosing a deficient martial art in large scale affairs. Both Sun Tzu and Musashi, who the “scholars” on this thread quote extensively for no discernible purpose other than to try to impress, contended that the greatest victories require no fisticuffs or clash of steel.

57

On Paul Hs post-
on the five rings- imo- the five rings coincide with Buddhist conception of the 5 elements (mahabhutam)- earth, fire, water, wind and emptiness(shunya). Mushashi’s work is obviously not about zazen- but on the logic of fighting but the inner spirit is informed by the 5 elements.

On Rene’s post_
I dont see how wing chun is automatically vindicated or negated
by the anti Ching work— not enough “critical mass” can be provided by an art that is better at training individuals than group preparations which needs other elements to supplement individual skills.

On Hendrik’s post-
Much is true except see the irrelevancy of the effectiveness of wc in my answer to Rene.

Corruption was not a Qing monopoly. Lots of fuzzy ethics among the Ming too.And- the treachery of the pipsqeaky intellectuals/literati- they often like to be on the winning side
after some rhetorical flourishes.

Re: the Nationalist revolution of Sun yat Sen- didnt live very long afterwards. Sun Yat Sen’s land redistribution ideas died soon.Chiang Kai Shek, his wife and brothers–Wellington Koo and others in Kuomintang soon took over. The nationalists were not necessarily friends of Buddhism either- though they were more tolerant than Mao. Chiang Kai Shek’s folks lobbed shells into Shaolin- they opposed the Abbot’s view of local control which also meant barons/warlords. The KMT had a “western” vision centralised control in a nation state-nationalism— Koo and Co were elite bankers financiers and under Madame CKS’s influence-
methodist fundamentalism was the inhouse way.

After initial caution on CMA the KMT went along with the idea of
national arts kuoshu(sp?)- but they did not revamp things like Mao’s overlay on wushu. But Mao’s world certainly made a negative dent on the martial elements in many martial arts.

So you have flight /escapes of CMA artists to Taiwan or much southern hands to HK- or going underground in different degrees-
Chen village — or becoming coaches for the new wu shu.

So onward through the historical fog!! Happy days are here again!!

58

Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Corruption was not a Qing monopoly. Lots of fuzzy ethics among the Ming too.And- the treachery of the pipsqeaky intellectuals/literati- they often like to be on the winning side
after some rhetorical flourishes.

[/B]

Joy,

Ming’s emperor was force to commit suicide by the contry’s rebels riot army. Not by the Qing.

a few top generals of Ming sold out Ming Emperor to qing for thier own self-benifit.

Ming is not as pretty as one picture… and Qing’s KangXi emperor is one of the top ten best emperor of Chinese History. So, what to argue.

Not to mention, the first emperor of Ming is cruel and a person full of suspicious or not trusting others. Look at how his general and ministers end up?

Ming emperor using the “unix”:smiley: to spy on the official and remote control. then, it back fire that those “unix” control the royal family and set up puppet emperors.

Chi Qi-Kuang the great general who protect and waroff Japaness pirates and compile a new training method for Ming military can’t even afford for a Coffin when he die. His friends gather the money for his burried. Chi is a Buddhist. He has a practiced of recite the Diamond Sutra for his people who die in the battle.

There is lots of Romance in Fan Qing Fu Ming movements. Certainly, one can understand it is painfull for the manchurian to conqure and rule china.

I dont see how wing chun is automatically vindicated or negated
by the anti Ching work —Joy

what if WCK is as simple as the martial art of the opera singers and got roll into the turbulance of Taiping rebellion after the Opium War?

59

Lau Yam Fa Ming

Sun Yat-sen
Born Nov. 12, 1866 in Guangdong province
1879 Studies medicine in Hawaii
1895 Leads first insurrection against Qing dynasty
1905 Develops “Three Principles of the People”
1911 Qing dynasty is overthrown
1913 Kuomintang, the party he founded, wins national election but is soon expelled from parliament
1925 Dies March 12 in Beijing

Thus, when the Manchu dynasty at last collapsed in 1911, in some measure because of the ceaseless pressure exerted by Sun and his revolutionary followers, he was named provisional President of the new Chinese republic.

Though they clung feebly on for another decade, this was the end of the Qing, and internal movements to dismantle the dynastic system and build a new China proliferated. The most influential of these was the Tong Meng Hui society, founded in 1905 in Japan by the exile Sun Yatsen, a doctor from a wealthy Guangdong family.

Born in 1866 to a farming family in southeast China, not far from Macau and Hong Kong, Sun received a few years of local schooling in traditional Chinese texts. At 13 he moved to Hawaii, where his elder brother had emigrated. Three years of study in a Honolulu boarding school run by the Church of England were followed by more than a decade in Hong Kong, where Sun was baptized a Christian and gained certificates of proficiency in medicine and surgery. He practiced medicine briefly in Hong Kong in 1893.

He was a Chinese patriot of a more traditional kind, an admirer of rebels who had pitted their lives against the ruling Manchu dynasty (or Qing) and was at home within the conspiratorial worlds of Chinese secret societies.

The Qing overthrown

[URL=http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990823/sun_yat_sen1.html]Life and times of Sun Yat-Sen

Tong Meng Hui society

60

Tony,

My apologies, I mistakenly thought it was obvious in the post that ‘not overthrown’ meant by ‘not overthrown by an army of rebels trained in WCK’.

Or are you contending Dr. Sun’s army was trained in WCK, and WCK was the primary reason for their victory over the Qing?

BTW- Are you aware that according to historians (see: Secret Societies Reconsidered by Owensby et al) , Dr. Sun was primarily responsible for the spread of the Shaolin-Triad connection myth? (He thought it would make it easier to enlist the aid of off-shore Triads if they believed they came from patriotic roots).