WCK Origin theories?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Keith,

“Do you think it is possible for a martial art particular to the secret societies that has been hidden from the public (but used to train an army to fight in rebellion against the Cheng) to remain hidden from and unseen by the public even after those societies have largely disbanded and the primary reason for secrecy (fall of the Ching dynasty) has ended?”

Almost anything is possible. That being the case, all we can realistically do, as you say, is determine what is more likely as opposed to less likely.

If WCK was really an art trained by a large number of people in the secret societies (as opposed to a small fringe group on the Red Junks), then it likely would still have spread prior to and beyond the Red Junks within the Societies and today be found in Taiwan and overseas much as Hung fist and other Society arts are.

Look at one of the most popular WCK origin myths - that it was created to defeat the more common arts leaked to the Manchu so that soldiers could be trained better/faster and overthrow the Qing.

Yet they don’t spread it, they don’t train the militias, and they don’t overthrow the Qing? Either that wasn’t what WCK was created for, or the implementation was ineffective to the point of, well, not being the work of the brightest minds out there.

Again, IMHO, everyone can and will have theories, from Shaolin to Wudang, from English sailors bringing in western boxing to a little girl fighting off a bully, and that’s great. The more theories, the more attention, the more discussion, but in terms of HISTORY, we only KNOW so much, and the rest, no matter how rational or romantic, is conjecture, and personally I like to keep my conjecture as grounded as possible.

We know the Red Junk had WCK aboard in the 1850s. We’ve thusfar not found WCK stemming from anywhere else, any earlier. It may have, maybe it even did, but there’s nothing to indicate it yet, much less support it. We have a reasonably good idea what WCK looked like back to that point, what shapes it used and how it generated power (which are often considered the mapping points of an MA), and we know what other arts were around at that point in that area. Hopefully that will lead us someplace, and if its to where Hendrik or the VTM or someone else is pointing, fair enough, and if not, hopefully that will be just as acceptable to everyone who is interested not in a particular theory, but to the real origins of our art.

22

Hi Alex,

“have you read the “Mastering Kung Fu” book yet???”

No, I checked my local bookstore and while they have “Jujitsu” and “Karate”, no “Kung Fu” yet. If they don’t get it soon, it will likely be part of my next Amazon order.

“I’d be curious to hear your take on it.”

I’m also interested in hearing some opinions from non VTM folks as to how accesible it is to an external audience.

“The gist of my problem with Hendrick’s research, is that personally it doesn’t relate to my Wing Chun experience at all.”

There are certain things that most modern WCK people are no longer very familiar with–some ways of doing things and some ways of calling things. When I met Hendrik for the first time, though his branch of WCK broke from mine in the late 1800s, those things remained, and while many at the LA Friendship Seminar stared on, we did old forms of Chi Sao, and referenced old terminologies no one else there had previously experienced.

The same thing happened when I met Jim Roselando of Gulao WCK, though our branches also split around the turn of the 20th century.

Yip Man’s Foshan students, Leung Sheung lineage, and some others also retain some of these aspects (taken as a whole, they are probably all there just scattered more due to the larger spread and elaboration).

"Many of the stated simularities that he finds in common with White Crane simply do not exist in my system. "

I have a different problem, and its the same one I have with the VTM’s Shaolin/Chan theory - I can’t tell if its something that existed since inception, or something that came about later. Its a problem of time stamp. Hendrik is trying to nail that down by mapping out the development of certain important milestones in White Crane (if something similar was only developed later, it diminishes the possibility of earlier derivation).

What is also confusing is that he is breaking down the ‘shape’ and the ‘power’ to two different sources. WCK doesn’t generate power the way most other martial arts that come from the same time and place generate power (eg. Hung Kuen), and any theory intent on discussing WCK origins has to address that. Hendrik is addressing it by saying the shape of White Crane (which is known to have been in the area) was combined with the power generation of 12 Postures, (which was foreign to the area).

This will require at least 2 areas of research:

  1. Is the power generation really same/similar
  2. How could a Sichuan system end up on the Red Junks? (which could possibly benefit from the knowledge of immigration patterns at the time, the same patterns that brought Fujian arts into the area).

“And many things that exist in my system, do not appear in other lineages either.”

Over time, things tend towards distinction. And there are layers of similarity. If a small group train different arts, and a large group train the same art, the areas of similarity are different.

“If you read the book, I think that regardless of what WC origin you ultimately choose, the awareness that you gain of my system’s fundamental differences will help your understanding of my position immensely.”

So you train HFY? Okay, that gives me a better idea of what you mean above. Hopefully the book will as well.

But it begs the question–how different can something be and still be the same? Or, how similar does it have to be not to be different?

“Back to work… no holiday for me…”

No Columbus Day? Don’t worry, I’m sure some Canucks hoisted a drumstick or two in your honor.

23

Hi Rene,

Just get this and so exited to share with you.

A picture taken at 1860’s.

this guy was the Manchu governor-general of Kwang- tung and Kwang -Xi at that time, the one you asked for and now heaven send him to me in my travel.

So our ancestors fight his armies? :smiley:

John, if you drink my Vampire blood , I shall bring you across the time. I am in 1850’s now. who do you want to meet?
Beware what you asked for. :smiley:

24

What Style is this?

E12P.

Enjoy.

25

{There are certain things that most modern WCK people are no longer very familiar with–some ways of doing things and some ways of calling things. When I met Hendrik for the first time, though his branch of WCK broke from mine in the late 1800s, those things remained, and while many at the LA Friendship Seminar stared on, we did old forms of Chi Sao, and referenced old terminologies no one else there had previously experienced.

The same thing happened when I met Jim Roselando of Gulao WCK, though our branches also split around the turn of the 20th century.

Yip Man’s Foshan students, Leung Sheung lineage, and some others also retain some of these aspects (taken as a whole, they are probably all there just scattered more due to the larger spread and elaboration).

I have a different problem, and its the same one I have with the VTM’s Shaolin/Chan theory - I can’t tell if its something that existed since inception, or something that came about later. Its a problem of time stamp. Hendrik is trying to nail that down by mapping out the development of certain important milestones in White Crane (if something similar was only developed later, it diminishes the possibility of earlier derivation).}

So let me get this straight… is this how you are trying to tell if your old forms of Chi Sau existed since inception???

{What is also confusing is that he is breaking down the ‘shape’ and the ‘power’ to two different sources. WCK doesn’t generate power the way most other martial arts that come from the same time and place generate power (eg. Hung Kuen), and any theory intent on discussing WCK origins has to address that. Hendrik is addressing it by saying the shape of White Crane (which is known to have been in the area) was combined with the power generation of 12 Postures, (which was foreign to the area).

This will require at least 2 areas of research:

  1. Is the power generation really same/similar
  2. How could a Sichuan system end up on the Red Junks? (which could possibly benefit from the knowledge of immigration patterns at the time, the same patterns that brought Fujian arts into the area).}

You pose some very interesting questions! What I meant by there being things in HFY not in other systems and visa versa… really is in our structural theory and core chan philosophy. I know many people think that we are just throwing Chan into the mix. But once you actually get an understanding of the whole system and the way Chan philosophy is fundamental and so deeply embedded over and over again in micro and macro perspectives through out, I don’t think anyone could deny that it really is Shaolin WC.

If you remove our physics-based structure and Chan learning methodology, there really is nothing left except a lot of kinda similar moves to other WC.

Personally, I’m finding learning about are differences kinda interesting. But then again, questioning everything is my nature.

I’ll ask some people who know way more than me about the 2 questions you posed…

Alex

Damm Canucks… they don’t know how good they got it, or do they??

26

Keith,

My understanding of Hendrik’s theory and its evolution is as follows:

In the 1970s, he inherited the Cho Kuen Kuet (handed down from opera performer Yik Kam to Cho Shun in the late 1800s) from Cho Hung-Choy, the only known person to have trained under both Cho Chuen in China and Cho On in Malaysia. Cho Hung-Choi was interested in the origins of WCK and had been researching them, and Hendrik began to help him. Since White Crane had migrated to Malaysia and to some extent been published, they were able to see certain connections to white crane in the Cho system (some of the core shapes and some of the stanza’s of Kuen Kuit.)

(It should probably be noted that what the Cho’s call Kuen Kuit are far beyond what most of us are used to–not just tactical or training idioms, the Cho Kuen Kuit are super detailed, step by step methodologies for the complete core sets of the system ("open your legs like this, breath like that, work this type of Ging, develop that kind of intent, etc. etc. etc).)

Then, one day, a book was published on an obscure and heretofor externally unknown system from the Golden Summit Temple of Emei, Sichuan Province, called the 12 Postures (Shi Er Zhuang/Sup Yee Jong). Hendrik or his sifu (I forget which) got a copy of the book, and was startled to see that it matched almost completely (a few differences in use of similar meaning but differently written characters here and there) those Cho Kuen Kuit that weren’t white crane.

Since the Cho Kuen Kuit had not been released to anyone outside the Cho family (until Hendrik, I think), and the 12 Postures had not been released outside Emei until the author of the book went public, they were astounded. To them, the Cho Kuen Kuit matched their Siu Lien Tao and they couldn’t imagine it matching another system.

Cho Hung-Choy passed away, but Hendrik continued his work. He sought out as much as he could on the 12 Postures, and studied it, and he saw that the Kuen Kuit matched the 12 Postures as exactly as they matched the Siu Lien Tao. The methodology was the same, only the shapes differed–Siu Lien Tao’s shapes were more like White Crane.

Now, Cho family, like Sum Nung and some other branches, has an origin myth that states, in part, Buddhist Nun Ng Mui founded the White Crane system in Fujian, then left to travel the South. During her travels, she met a monk named Miu Shun to whom she taught White Crane. Miu Shun, already the master of his own (unanmed) system, mixed his art with White Crane, and taught it to Yim Yee.

Hendrik saw in this an allegory for the shape of White Crane to be mixed with the method of another system, and in the parallel with Cho Kuen Kuit, he saw this other system to be 12 Postures.

(It should be noted at this point that Hendrik is a religious Buddhist. He’s not someone who does MA as a hobby who’s recently began looking into Buddhism for MA reasons–It’s his religion. This will, in part, explain his reaction to certain theories–he takes offense to them the way, perhaps, a Catholic who has studied with the cardinals would to someone who said WCK was founded as a direct expression of the holy scriptures (but not turning the other cheek). He may well be wrong, and they may well be right, but its religion, and his religion, so his reaction to those kinds of ideas is, if not appreciated by all, certainly understandable).

Over time, since he is Chinese and literate in Chinese (I’m not sure any of the others whose theories we are here discussing are, FWIW, myself included, though many of us have a smattering of knowledge on written Chinese, and some are striving very hard to learn), he continued to research the related histories of the opera and the societies from Chinese, Taiwanese, Hong Kong, and South East Asian sources, using his business trips to China to aid in ‘hands on’, research.

This is what led him to sharing articles like this one on the potential ‘Shanghai Connection’

And to historical references that indicate things like Saam Pai Fut might not refer to Buddha, but to the Red Turban take over of FUTshan, and Kim Yeung not to a horse stance, but to the attempted seige of YEUNG city of Guangzhou. (Maybe right, maybe wrong, but bold nonetheless, and offered with some measure of support in Red Turban slogans).

Most of the recent stuff I’ll assume you’ve seen on the board. I’m not Hendik, nor are his theories mine, but I do appreciate and respect his work, and believe it benefits all of us, as it raises questions and prompts discussion, and sets the bar higher than it might otherwise be.

27

Alex,

Sorry, I didn’t mean WRT the Chi Sao, but to Hendrik’s White Crane and 12 Posture theory. Like the VTM’s Buddhism theory, while I can see what he means when he talks of the connection, I don’t yet see a timestamp that proves WC and 12P were there from the beginning, and not just something that overwhelmed it since that time. (As I said though, he’s made real progress by continually limiting the time frame via mapping the evolution of WC and the spread of 12P).

28

Rene,

I certainly DO NOT claim to be any authority on Chan Buddism, but I don’t understand why Hendrik would take such offense at our system???

We have some very seriously practicing Buddists in our school, and all of them think that it’s really cool that there is such strong parallels in our WC training and their religious practice. One of our students is evan an ex- Buddist nun who lived in a convent for twenty years. I would think he would actually be MORE interested in our system.

And… most of the students in my Kwoon are Chinese, a good many of them born there with families still there, and they all are fluent in the language.

Anyways, just thought I’d share this with you… in hope of us all getting along better.

Alex

29

Hi Alex,

I don’t believe he takes offense at your system at all, just at claims that any martial art originated as an expression of Chan. Hendrick studied directly under a student of Xu Yun, under a classmate of Deng Hai, and takes it, and Shaolin, fairly seriously. And I’m not saying whether he’s right or wrong to do so, just explaining that he’s rather religious and as we know, when religion is involved, things can become very sensitive for some (like my analogy of a Catholic).

And by your Kwoon, do you mean you are in SF with Gee sifu? That’s not what/who I was referring to. (More to those, past and present, actively involved in the online debate).

BTW- How did your ‘he’ end up in a convent? Was that a mistype or a very interesting story??

30

Rene,

the student I was referring to is a woman. The ‘he’ I was referring to was Hendrik. I should have made that more clear.

And yes, I am a student directly under Sifu Gee at the SF kwoon.

We recently had a seminar in AZ, where Sifu explained in much more detail the relationship HFY has with Chan Buddism. I wish you could have been there, as I would not want to speak for Sifu.

regards,

Alex

31

John W sez:

BTW, I know Columbus discovered America in 1492, but who discovered Canada?

Now now John- that is bad history. New orld tribals discovered Columbus and some of them paid with their lives as a result.

Columbus did not discover Amarica nor did vasco da Gama discover India. My wife’s folks and mine were around long long before that.

On Canada. Ojibway, Crees, and others roamed there too- the Inuits came in much later but long before the Europeans.

Recently, the Interior minister for Ontario denied an investigatio because he was too busy campaigning… some time ago a police sniper picked off and shot an Indian who was protesting a land issue.

There are indeed different “his-tories”.

32

Alex- I wish to thank you. Just read the last several posts in this thread. You have given me more information about HFY than all the other posts in all the other threads. Keep up the good posts.

33

Alex sez-
I certainly DO NOT claim to be any authority on Chan Buddism, but I don’t understand why Hendrik would take such offense at our system???

Because- there are many different kinds of “buddhism”. But strictly speaking pure Chan has disciplined methods of transmission- the fighting arts is not one of them.

Individual buddhists can do all sorts of things under the umbrella of buddhism and subjectively rationalize them.

Neither Chan epistemology, nor the Chan sutras advocate the development of martial arts let alone a specific martial art.

Monks on travels carried staves- being generally fit some could fend off an unexpected attack by man or beast.

The first Chan patriarch in China was the Boddhidharma. In his famous transmitted sermon- “Outline of Practice”- it is said:

"Many roads lead to the Path, but basically there are only two:reason and practice. To enter by reason means to realize the essence through instruction and to believe that all living things share the same true nature, which isn’t apparent because it’s shrouded by sensation and delusion…

To enter by practice refers to four all inclusive practices: suffering injustice, adapting to conditions, seeking nothing, and practicing the Dharma.“”

Hendrik IMO has correctly pointed out other buddhist and non buddhist influences in early wing chun.

The richness of buddhism can be used for various utilitarian reasons and intentions- the samurai sword and killing, warrior “monks”, attacking the Qing, betraying the Ming, falun gong, sokkagokai, touring shaolin monks
marketing , wealth, cultism, militarism, patriotism. shorinji kempo among other activities.

joy

34

Great job Rene in highlighting Hendrik’s origin thesis, Hendrik is doing an amazing and dedicated job in pursuing his origin thesis.
But much remains. Some thoughts-

I have no problem with different bio-mechanical approaches to kung fu- or interesting myths and lineage histories. Having said that — I think that there is much to be done for Hendrik’s thesis to become anywhere near a complete history of wing chun- beyond the Cho lineage. I have no problem in seeing some common features between what Hendrik does and Ip Man wing chun as I understand it. But there are differences that could be attributed to the long standing separate paths.

Chi sao, tan sao, footwork issues come to mind. These might be developmental differences due to the separate paths.
However lurking in mind honestly are the pics that I saw of Wang Kew Kit(sp?) supposedly a Cho practitioner…he was doing lots of things (leaning, weighting, karate like moves) that seem very far removed from wing chun.

I have no problem with the Ng Mui myth- myths are informative
concentrated capsules on how people think or thought. And I can see Ng Mui evolving and ergo in the development different names emrging for “styles” with commom features.

Fujian is a ways from Sichuan and the likely reason or pattern of migration could be more fleshed out- however speculatively in order to buttress the
crane-emei 12 synthesis becoming clearer.

Passing thoughts on a complex puzzle.

joy

35

Hi Rene, Joy, JOhn,

After the Sun Tzu qoute, I qoute Shurangama sutra with specifics.

A----------------------------------------------

Philosophy :

Example:

  1. The skillful tactician may be likened to the
    shuai-jan. Now the shuai-jan is a snake that is found
    in the ChUng mountains. Strike at its head, and you
    will be attacked by its tail; strike at its tail, and you
    will be attacked by its head; strike at its middle,
    and you will be attacked by head and tail both. —Sun Tzu.

implementation :

Example:

“Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail) “Gum Chong Gan Bil/Pil Bong Folk” (press the center shoot out bong or folk (compare this to the sun tzu qout above)

Technology : Chi Sau, Sensing, Awareness.

Let See what we have in Shurangama Sutra…

B------------------------------------------------------

The Shurangama Sutra
----- Twenty -five Means to Enlightenment.

Sutra:

We first heard the dharma and left the home-life under
King of Awesome Sound Buddha. Once, when it was time for
the Sangha to bathe, I followed the custom and entered the
bathhouse. Suddenly I awakened to the fact that water does not
wash away the dust, nor does it cleanse the body. At that point,
between the two, I became peaceful, and I attained the state of
there being nothing at all.

To this day, I have never forgotten that past experience.
Having left home with the Buddha, I have gone beyond study.
That Buddha named me Bhadrapala. Wonderful touch was
revealed, and I accomplished the position of the Buddha¡¦s
disciple.

The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. As I have been
certified to it, touch is the superior means.

Sutra:

When I first left home to follow the Buddha and enter the
way, I often heard the Thus Come One explain that there is
nothing in this world that brings happiness. Once, when I was
begging in the city, I was reflecting on this Dharma-door and
did not notice a poisonous thorn on the road until it had *****ed
my foot. My entire body experienced physical pain, but my
mind also had an awareness: though it was aware of strong pain
and recognized the feeling of pain, I knew that in my pure
heart, there was neither pain nor awareness of pain.

I also thought, ¡¥Is it possible for one body to have two
awarenesses?¡¦ Having reflected on this for a while, my body
and mind were suddenly empty. After twenty-one days, my
outflows disappeared. I accomplished Arhatship and received
certification in person and a confirmation that I had realized
the level beyond study.

The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. As I have been
certified to it, purifying the awareness and forgetting the body
is the superior method.

Thus, Technically, I don’t believe in generazation of Damo’s Chan or Northern or Southern Shao Lin CHAN which "mention something but has no specific at all. "
Specific can be found.
We know where the “Technology” comes from. IMHO.
Get a copy of Shurangama Sutra. IT is worthed if one is interested in those cultivation “Technology.”

These all are not LanKa or Diamond Sutra "based. "
Thus, Can’t just link this to DAMO’s CHAN.

Remember my analogy of directly halt the operating system or Loading and un loading the interface of Computer?

I understood and respect how some likes to or believe thier base system is from Chan. And that is great.
Just suggest that one has to go through the related sutras and get a real Buddhist monk sifu. Bottom line, Chan/ Esoteric Buddhism is not a book reading subject. It needs transmission… Just Can’t learn it from reading.

Anything which makes WCK and the WCner better and more advance is great . So, for some may be instead of view me as always attacking, when I did pure technical discussion. why not view me as pointing a direction for everyone to be better?

36

Notes on Hendrik’s post (still in China?):
After the Sun Tzu qoute, I qoute Shurangama sutra with specifics.

A----------------------------------------------

Philosophy :

Example:

  1. The skillful tactician may be likened to the
    shuai-jan. Now the shuai-jan is a snake that is found
    in the ChUng mountains. Strike at its head, and you
    will be attacked by its tail; strike at its tail, and you
    will be attacked by its head; strike at its middle,
    and you will be attacked by head and tail both. —Sun Tzu.

((Sun Tzu’s conception informs good kung fu- but particularly informs wing chun. Some key wing chun kuen kuit follows from Sun Tzu))

implementation :

Example:

“Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail) “Gum Chong Gan Bil/Pil Bong Folk” (press the center shoot out bong or folk (compare this to the sun tzu qout above)

((hendrik: is that a Cho family kuit? Do you have a tan concept in
Cho family?))

Technology : Chi Sau, Sensing, Awareness.

Let See what we have in Shurangama Sutra…

B------------------------------------------------------

The Shurangama Sutra
----- Twenty -five Means to Enlightenment.

Sutra:

We first heard the dharma and left the home-life under
King of Awesome Sound Buddha. Once, when it was time for
the Sangha to bathe, I followed the custom and entered the
bathhouse. Suddenly I awakened to the fact that water does not
wash away the dust, nor does it cleanse the body. At that point,
between the two, I became peaceful, and I attained the state of
there being nothing at all.

To this day, I have never forgotten that past experience.
Having left home with the Buddha, I have gone beyond study.
That Buddha named me Bhadrapala. Wonderful touch was
revealed, and I accomplished the position of the Buddha¡¦s
disciple.

(( The refinement of the concept of touch, listening , and ting jing-
certainly follows from this. However, most who dont read the sutras may need to follow-less is more- in refining wing chun practice and minimizing muscle IMO))

The Buddha asks about perfect penetration. As I have been
certified to it, touch is the superior means.

Sutra:

When I first left home to follow the Buddha and enter the
way, I often heard the Thus Come One explain that there is
nothing in this world that brings happiness. Once, when I was
begging in the city, I was reflecting on this Dharma-door and
did not notice a poisonous thorn on the road until it had *****ed
my foot. My entire body experienced physical pain, but my
mind also had an awareness: though it was aware of strong pain
and recognized the feeling of pain, I knew that in my pure
heart, there was neither pain nor awareness of pain.

((This can be empirically proven- from fire walking to the self immolation of Vietnamese monks in protest. In fighting “overcoming” pain is important))

Thus, Technically, I don’t believe in generazation of Damo’s Chan or Northern or Southern Shao Lin CHAN which "mention something but has no specific at all. "
Specific can be found.
We know where the “Technology” comes from. IMHO.
Get a copy of Shurangama Sutra. IT is worthed if one is interested in those cultivation “Technology.”

((Hendrik- unfortunately without specific guidance or very
clear two way communication- the Surangama can sound like gibberish and be replaced unfortunately by a follow the leader
ethic or a cult.
Further, there is always the danger of solipsism- of mistaking/projecting one’s subjective understanding as the only real world.
Live or dead- Schroedinger’s(sp?) cat is indeed a cat not a dog
or a dream! A punch is a punch!!)) Joy

37

One other point Hendrik— when you say:

Bottom line, Chan/ Esoteric Buddhism is not a book reading subject. It needs transmission… Just Can’t learn it from reading

(Previous;y you have made a distinction between Chan
and esoteric Buddhism-
linking the latter with the fusion of fujian and emei in wing chun…
here above you have put Chan slash esoteric buddhism- probably needs clarification …??))

38

This is a Wing Chun Forum.

Once again, this message board is NOT a Chan Buddhism forum. Lengthy discussions of what Chan is/isn’t, etc. are not appropriate for this forum.

39

Yeah! And everyone knows that Wing Chun is Confucian, anyway. I mean, if you’re all not squabbling for the ‘Mandate of Heaven’, who is? :smiley:

Ok, that was a joke…

…note to Hendrik:

I believe that someone/thing was mentioned: Miu Shan? Is this a person or the mountain you refer to? [Classical Chinese is kinda weird that way]

40

Re: This is a Wing Chun Forum.

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Once again, this message board is NOT a Chan Buddhism forum. Lengthy discussions of what Chan is/isn’t, etc. are not appropriate for this forum.

What a strange coincidence…Sandman2’s 108th is about NOT Chan Buddhism!

JKW