sometimes the instructor is more important than the style. Let’s put it this way:
assume wing chun is a fantastic style
but you have no qualified teacher. Only option is learning from tapes
learning from tapes and w/out training partners, you become mediocre martial artist
OR
you therefore choose another martial art (maybe even a slightly inferior one ) but with a GOOD instructor and other fellow practioners to train with. This means you can keep interest b/c you share it with others and you can become PROFICIENT at a martial art
It is the man who makes the style and not the style that makes the man. If you work hard at it, another style may be just as good. Try shotokan or TKD.
I know a few great Shotokan fighters. One of them is an uncle. However, if you want something less rigid, TKD is also ok. Don’t let other WC posters deter you…if you work hard at TKD you can become a great fighter too and maybe even take out one or two WC guys
hans
i will try to answer you without resorting to being a smarta$$, which you clearly wish to be.
we don’t train for several years to learn things & then change them, it is a simple fact that when you are at a level when you are in control of your wing chun & not it’s slave, whether due to it may be a slight touch of laziness(as you age & your focas shifts from perhaps being a fighter to someone staying with what they love to keep fit, whatever) or that in the end you slightly modify it to suit you(again the master not the slave) things may end up looking a little sloppy(to the untrained eye).also for people at this level it seems that the moment they have to move be it in training or a real situation their body will move correctly due to all the years of training.
i am nowhere near the level of letting little things not quite look right or be performed, what may seem to the average eye, incorrectly.
although my form doesn’t look picture perfect that is what i aim for.
as a side note it may take just a ‘FEW’ more years than several to have wing chun movements so much a part of you that you can allow your form to look a little sloppy without suffering bad habits from it.
i am sorry if i am unable to make clear something that should be odvious, i am sorry if you don’t understand what i am trying to say & i am sorry if you wish to continue being a smarta$$.
just quickly, there is a big differnce between looking sloppy & being sloppy.
and besides everything else some peoples bodies will just not allow for perfect positioning.
vts
when talking about sloppy form, I’m not talking about just the three training sets. I’m also talking about sloppy hands.
Once a good foundation always a good foundation. You don’t become sloppy as you get better…hands are ingrained within you. Thery are second nature. If you have a good foundation, your hands will always be perfectly positioned.
Dont’ forget that Wong began fighting when he was only in 6months of training or so. He didn’t really have too much time to build a solid foundation before he could pick up bad habits.
I am sorry if you are offended but we are all entitled to our opinions and your attitude makes people speak more bluntly than they intended…
I know people who, when doing their forms, have perfect hand positiong and correct posture and right angles. Yet when they do chi sau or fight, they are a mess.
I also know people who have poor positioning but can use it in a fight.
And I know some…thought less, that can DO BOTH. They have the same high standards throughout. Tan sau has fingers and palm flat…fingers together to prevent getting jammed…thumb tucked in for the same reasons…in FORMS AND IN FIGHTS. Wu Sau at the CENTERLINE…not too out and not more than a fist’s distance in…in FORMS AND IN FIGHTS.
my 2 cents
EC
P.S.
how can sloppy positioning with anybody look that way and not be that way?!?!?! that’s a contradiction. Sloppy hands means the practioner has BAD HABITS. He might be able to use it, but it would be BETTER if he didn’t do that.
For example, William Cheung’s simultaneous attack and defense: his punches are always a half-second slower to arrive than his blocks. He also oulls his punch back very slightly before launching it…thereby telegraphing his punch. Yet he was a great fighter in his day. But he has bad habits. He could live with them, but would be better without them.
I cannot prove or disprove anyone’s comments with words alone. That is the reason I tend to stay out of this type of discussions. However, when my Sifu’s name was brought up, I felt the need to offer a few words (fashioned from my personal experiences).
I studied with Sifu Wong Shun Leung and I never saw any problems with his execution of the forms. Forms in Ving Tsun are not there to serve an aesthetic function; they act as an alphabet for use in creating a fighting language. Sifu taught us exactly the purpose of each and every structure found within the forms and the explanations never contradicted the execution of any of the techniques. The term “sloppy” brings to my mind, “form contradicting function” - which has never been the case in any of the forms or concepts that my Sifu had presented to me.
Perhaps one might find another person’s forms “sloppy” if they are not familiar with the function prescribed with the structures executed.
Also, the WSL videotape in question is not a good representation of my Sifu’s attributes for many reasons. He himself recommended me to stay away from it.
Ironfist,
May I ask where you are located? You’ve mentioned something about my school in Chicago’s Chinatown being inaccessible to you. You can e-mail me through my website if you feel more comfortable doing so.
your 2 cents is duely noted & is really all it’s worth anyways.
if you think i am offended by what you say then you are wrong in your thoughts, i have tried to explain & if we disagree then so be it, no need to worry, people are always going to view things differently.
i do appoligise for my abrupt personality but that is just me & i think you’ve been around here long enough to know that & should realise to take it with a grain of salt.
EmptyCup
do you mind answering some questions, as in all fairness i have answered yours.
firstly, do mind me asking how long you have trained wing chun(i myself have only 12 years experience)
‘‘Dont’ forget that Wong began fighting when he was only in 6months of training or so. He didn’t really have too much time to build a solid foundation before he could pick up bad habits.’’
on what grounds do you base this, were you there or is this what you have been told?
‘‘how can sloppy positioning with anybody look that way and not be that way?!?!?! that’s a contradiction. Sloppy hands means the practioner has BAD HABITS. He might be able to use it, but it would be BETTER if he didn’t do that.’’
let me just say i don’t agree with that but hell i’ve been known to be wrong on more than one occassion.(i have already stated why & to them you didn’t agree but that’s fine by me)
from whom do you learn?
there form must look perfect, surely they don’t have any bad looking parts to there form, surely there movements look no different to yours. he/she doesn’t do anything slightly different yet asks you to perform it slightly different as you are different & he wants you to perform it correctly not just the way he does it.
again i don’t speak for wong or my sifu & have no idea as to why he may look sloppy, i have tried my best to explain various reasons as to why i think these things can happen based on my limited knowledge.
i am odviously a nobody without any reputation, so maybe it would be nice if you asked david peterson or straightblast5 as to why wong’s form looked that way as they were direct students.(sorry sb5 as i had typed this well before you posted but my adsl went out)
perhaps he could shed some light for you seeing as a nobody like me can not
vts
ps have you see yip man doing the form, why don’t we start on him and his technique, or was it perfect & i’m the only one missing something.
2 - I have the EXACT number of years as you in WC. I also do a bit of stuff from other styles but WC is my foundation
3 - It is open knowledge that Wong started fighting as soon as he learned Sil Lim Tao. In fact, in one of them, his opponent dropped to one knee to punch him and Wong tried blocking it with Jum but still got nailed. He defeated the guy but then asked Yip Man what the deal was Yip said that Leung Bik was a small man and had no need for gang so his form used Jum in the second section after tan instead of the Chan Wa Shun version, which had gang b/c he was a larger man and used it often. Wong didn’t even know gang sau existed b/c he was still a novice! Ask Peterson…
4 - as to who I learned from, I learned from many people. But I have had two main WC teachers so far and looking for a third one (No Roy, not you maybe Stephen Law who learned from WSL and my second sifu)
I have stated the name of my sifu many times before in this forum but I will discuss this and the rest of your message in a private message…so check!
EC
P.S.
I have seen pics of him…such as on the jong and such. His tan sau is ug-ly!!! But then again, maybe he wanted to show off wrong techniques to prevent others from stealing the awesome WC secrets that he could only pass on to the chosen one
your right, i’m wrong.
they are the words you wish to hear so by all means enjoy them.
i may even give up wing chun as i have such a poor grasp of it compared to people like you, wow all these years & i have learnt so little.
how did i miss these odvious mistate & even begin i might be learning something.
i thank you for being able to help me realise this & hope you feel no animosity towards me forever doubting you.
vts
… you therefore choose another martial art (maybe even a slightly inferior one )
Alright dude, let’s put it this way. Say you are a fan of metal music but you hate country music, so you buy a guitar. The only teachers in the area are country-music teachers. Would you want to become an awesome country musician, even though you don’t like country music?
thought you learned from Wong DIRECTLY!!! The way you answered previous posts…
why would you have thought that, you asked me in the biu jee thread & i told you who he was, perhaps if you ask david peterson in one of your offline conversations he may give you even more information on my sifu if you ask.
it seems even if i appoligise for disagreeing or being easily upset by comments made about someone who did more for wing chun ,than you ever will, that i still have the attitude.
gee, you like to make hard to leave on any form of good terms but i geuss it’s just a case of whatever.
vts
,I have stated the name of my sifu many times before in this forum but I will discuss this and the rest of your message in a private message…so check!
sorry just found out pm’s were disabled if you wish to send me your answers i have enabled it, sorry about that.
vts
Thanks for the consideration Empty Cup, however it is a 2 sided street. S…too bad, because different perspectives give different answers. But I am quite flattered that you did consider it Empty Cup.
There are many WC teachers in Chicago.No matter what university you attend there should be one within 20 min of the school.Some are better than others but all are better than learning from a video.I would b happy to give you some names if you tell me where you are.
As already mentioned here before: The form is basic stuff. Every move in WC comes has its origin in the form. So, if your form isn´t correct, your applications aren´t correct either. That´s why the several WC-styles are so different: because their forms are.
If you think Yip Man didn´t do his form right, then nobody would have learnt it the correct way.
It is impossible to learn wingchun from a video. It is simply impossible. You may learn the outward motions, you may even be able to mimic exactly the movements of the guy in the video (at least what you can see of the movement, given the camera angle), but you will have zero understanding of why you do what you do. The tan sau goes forward along the centerline. Why? Where is your intention during tan sau positioning? Why? Where is the crook of your elbow pointing? Why? What leads your huen sau movement? Why? Where is your tailbone? Your neck? Why? etc etc etc .
Wingchun is an art of minute precision, a game in which fractions of an inch and fractions of a second make the difference. This is the stuff only a sifu can teach you, things you can only learn through doing in a kwoon and asking face to face from someone who knows. If you do not understand exactly why you do what you do, you will never be able to apply principles, because you don’t know what they are.
You cannot learn wingchun simply through “monkey see monkey do”. No disrespect to any style which you can learn that way
I was kidding. So do you teach near Ryerson or actually IN Ryerson? Is it a actualy commercial school or a martial arts club w/in the school for students?
hans
‘‘If you think Yip Man didn´t do his form right, then nobody would have learnt it the correct way.’’
rember, do as i say not as i do.
remember it’s the positons you put yourself in that wins the fight not the position you look like your in when you do the form.
how about puting a video of yourself up here doing the form as i am sure i am not the only one who would like to see what the king of chi sao looks like with his perfect form.
vts
All joking aside. You CANNOT learn SLT from a video. No way, no how. Why??? Because there is more than meets the eye. How do you learn how to feel through video tape? There are many subtle yet important things that you need a sifu to help you with.
If you can find a sifu who can help you even on an occasional basis, you will much better off. Now Phil has graciously offered to help you. Grab the opportunity, if not with him, then with someone else. But find someone. I’m willing to bet that you will not regret it.
) but with a GOOD instructor and other fellow practioners to train with. This means you can keep interest b/c you share it with others and you can become PROFICIENT at a martial art
