About yip, wsl not being good fighter who only fought srubs. You preach what Chu teaches you, has he even had a fight, let alone against anyone good. You use Alan Orr as back up as to the fact that you know what you are talking about, the old “well alan said I was one of the only ones who knows what is right” ie, but my big brother says I can. So please tell me all the pro-fighters (you know names we would regognize that are good fighters) he has fought or he would be on the same line ie, hasn’t fought anyone we would know so he isn’t anything in VT. I wont bother with you as we all know you are a 40 year lawyer that except by being picked on by the cool kids at school only “fights” with his training partners in a secure safe gym.
My point is not to put down either of these people, Although I don’t agree with the whole VT headlock or that it isn’t jujitsu atleast he is doing what he says, training with good guys and getting his guys into comp etc. You apply standards to everyone except your onw people face it. Yip and WSL would have fought hundreds of more people then probably your entire lineage. Im not going to justify why they were fighters as you just ignore reality and try to pretent that because they didn’t fight a UFC champion then they didn’t fight anyone good.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1050196]Does anyone here believe that chi Sao was really invented so that a smaller guy could train with a larger guy and not get trashed? In a sparring match the bigger guy has more advantages. Force two people to put their arms together and you take away his reach advantage and hitting power advantage because now you have to stick. The elders didn’t want to look bad in front of students so they chi saoed for an advantage.
I think it’s an interesting theory.[/QUOTE]
I think that it is a way for instructors to avoid getting trashed by young, strong students. Chi sao has a use I suppose, but I think that it was and is overly emphasized as a way for the experienced players to lay down rules to a novice while the advanced player breaks them to look fabulous.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1063671]About yip, wsl not being good fighter who only fought srubs.
[/QUOTE]
What is your evidence that they were good fighters? Please, share it.
You preach what Chu teaches you, has he even had a fight, let alone against anyone good.
Look, Yip Man knew the curriculum of WCK. He could obviously teach it. So can Robert. So could WSL. But just because someone knows the curriculum (the forms, drills, kuit, etc.) doesn’t mean they can use it.
It doesn’t matter whether Yip or Robert or WSL were good or poor fighters – that has nothing to do with you or me. We only develop OUR ability to use our WCK by using it (by fighting).
You use Alan Orr as back up as to the fact that you know what you are talking about, the old “well alan said I was one of the only ones who knows what is right” ie, but my big brother says I can.
My point is that if you LISTEN, you will see that all the folks who train MMA, from Alan to Dave to Frost to M1K3 to etc., you will see that they all pretty much say the same things about training.
So please tell me all the pro-fighters (you know names we would regognize that are good fighters) he has fought or he would be on the same line ie, hasn’t fought anyone we would know so he isn’t anything in VT. I wont bother with you as we all know you are a 40 year lawyer that except by being picked on by the cool kids at school only “fights” with his training partners in a secure safe gym.
My point is not to put down either of these people,
Yeah, I only fight in the gym. And guess what, I only play golf on golf courses, tennis on tennis courts, etc. That’s where these activities take place. Where do you think that people/fighters train to fight if not gyms?
Try to grasp this – most advanced white-belt level people at MMA gyms would beat the snot out of most of the WCK people, including your masters. Why? Because they are training like fighters, theyput in loads of time doing realistic sparring, and most WCK people don’t. Every good MMA school produces good, fighters, and some of them go on to amateur and pro competitions. If you go to a MMA school, you will train/spar with all levels of folks, from beginners to people who are really good. That takes place at every MMA school I’ve trained at and at every one I’ve visited. Go see for yourself.
Although I don’t agree with the whole VT headlock or that it isn’t jujitsu atleast he is doing what he says, training with good guys and getting his guys into comp etc. You apply standards to everyone except your onw people face it. Yip and WSL would have fought hundreds of more people then probably your entire lineage. Im not going to justify why they were fighters as you just ignore reality and try to pretent that because they didn’t fight a UFC champion then they didn’t fight anyone good.
If they fought someone good, tell me who it was. Look, you are just hero-worshipping. You want to believe in your heros. There is no doubt that WSL and others had fights. But they were fighting other kung fu guys, etc. When the WCK people went to fight the Thai’s, they got their asses kicked. Look at the rooftop fights? Is that “good”?
The bottom line – and all sport fighters recognize this – is that you only develop fighting skill through quality sparring, and that you only get as good as the sparring partners you face.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063721]When the WCK people went to fight the Thai’s, they got their asses kicked. Look at the rooftop fights? Is that “good”?[/QUOTE]
And what do you know of such things T? Do you want to know a true story? About Muay Thai and Wing Chun in the UK?
Long story short, WCK practitioner challenged to take a muay thai kick to his shin as the MT fella thought he was indestructable. MT guy kicks full whack and his own leg is broken by the WCK guys shin. Y’know what the WCK guy said?
“I practise wooden man every day, what wood do you hit?”
Hearing stories of some set up ring matches has absolutely nothing to do with reality. There are good and bad practitioners in all Martial Arts, I just think you need to get out and meet more good Wing Chun people. These two became very close friends afterwards and a mutual respect grew between them, so stop slinging sh1t!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063745]And what do you know of such things T? Do you want to know a true story? About Muay Thai and Wing Chun in the UK?
Long story short, WCK practitioner challenged to take a muay thai kick to his shin as the MT fella thought he was indestructable. MT guy kicks full whack and his own leg is broken by the WCK guys shin. Y’know what the WCK guy said?
“I practise wooden man every day, what wood do you hit?”
[/QUOTE]
That STORY is complete bullsh1t.
Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJAR1vjgJAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTZ3ptQDTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PftoPTZn0E
Oh, and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQINqPI7S0
Hearing stories of some set up ring matches has absolutely nothing to do with reality. There are good and bad practitioners in all Martial Arts, I just think you need to get out and meet more good Wing Chun people. These two became very close friends afterwards and a mutual respect grew between them, so stop slinging sh1t!
Why don’t you tell me the names of ANY WCK people who have ever beaten any MT boxers?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063750]That STORY is complete bullsh1t.[/QUOTE]
You’re so funny T! I tell you a true story that had many witnesses and you still have to fire back at me with your silly post!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063750]Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJAR1vjgJAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTZ3ptQDTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PftoPTZn0E
Oh, and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQINqPI7S0[/QUOTE]
First of all, I had a look and have to say ‘what’s so special there then?’ Great! Muay Thai players can kick a banana tree.
That’s a great drill for feeling the opponents thigh against your shin, but it doesn’t emulate shin to shin. I think the MT guy in my ‘story’ learnt that very quickly. And he was very humble from what I understand.
We train our legwork on rosewood mainly, in a very similar way to the Thais (we’re both snake & crane based if you know what I mean?) and just because you haven’t done THAT sort of drilling you seem to think other Wing Chun practitioners don’t either. And yes, I mean WITHIN their WCK, not from adding MT to the art.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063896]You’re so funny T! I tell you a true story that had many witnesses and you still have to fire back at me with your silly post!
[/QUOTE]
Bullsh1t. Please name ANY WCK person who has beaten a MT fighter. One? Hmmm?
First of all, I had a look and have to say ‘what’s so special there then?’ Great! Muay Thai players can kick a banana tree.
That’s a great drill for feeling the opponents thigh against your shin, but it doesn’t emulate shin to shin. I think the MT guy in my ‘story’ learnt that very quickly. And he was very humble from what I understand.
If you believe that story, then you are really brainwashed. MT fighters have the most powerful kick, they train by kicking with their shins full-power on the bag, pads, banana trees, etc. In every training session they kick thousands of times. No other method puts as much work into developing their shins for taking punishment as MT.
And you think that doing the wooden dummy develops your shins? How? Are you kicking the wooden dummy with your shins? No.
We train our legwork on rosewood mainly, in a very similar way to the Thais (we’re both snake & crane based if you know what I mean?)
No you don’t. You don’t do anything similar to the Thai’s.
and just because you haven’t done THAT sort of drilling you seem to think other Wing Chun practitioners don’t either. And yes, I mean WITHIN their WCK, not from adding MT to the art.
No, that’s not a part of WCK.
If you ever went and trained at a MT gym for 10 minutes, you wouldn’t be saying this nonsense.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063898]And you think that doing the wooden dummy develops your shins? How? Are you kicking the wooden dummy with your shins? No.[/QUOTE]
Er… Yes in fact I have. Our Plum Flower Wooden Man has an array of legwork, which fyi we all practised with bare feet or socks only.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063750]No you don’t. You don’t do anything similar to the Thai’s.[/QUOTE]
Er… Yes I do. There is a connection to the two you ignorant a$$!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063750]No, that’s not a part of WCK.[/QUOTE]
Er… yes it is.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063750]If you ever went and trained at a MT gym for 10 minutes, you wouldn’t be saying this nonsense.[/QUOTE]
And if you had actually learnt Wing Chun as I did, then neither would you be spewing your narrow minded opinions everywhere on this forum dude. I’m giving you a different method here, attempting to share what one of the eldest roots of Wing Chun in Europe has to offer and you dismiss it so easily.
Its a shame you’re obviously better at typing than you are at Wing Chun.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063903]
And if you had actually learnt Wing Chun as I did, then neither would you be spewing your narrow minded opinions everywhere on this forum dude. I’m giving you a different method here, attempting to share what one of the eldest roots of Wing Chun in Europe has to offer and you dismiss it so easily.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, sounds great, but on the other side (the side of reason) can you show us any–ANY–ANY evidence at all–one single example anywhere–of this in actual fighting?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063903]Er… Yes in fact I have. Our Plum Flower Wooden Man has an array of legwork, which fyi we all practised with bare feet or socks only.
[/QUOTE]
Your not kicking the posts with your shins as hard as you can.
Er… Yes I do. There is a connection to the two you ignorant a$$!
You misunderstood me. I am saying that YOU don’t do anything similar to what MT trains. YOU.
Er… yes it is.
No.
And if you had actually learnt Wing Chun as I did, then neither would you be spewing your narrow minded opinions everywhere on this forum dude. I’m giving you a different method here, attempting to share what one of the eldest roots of Wing Chun in Europe has to offer and you dismiss it so easily.
I dismiss all kinds of nonsense easily.
WCK is WCK. Lineage is bullsh1t. All lineage is just someone’s particular way of teaching WCK, the same art. Lee Shing WCK is nothing special. Neither is CSL WCK. Or WSL WCK. Or Gu Lao WCK. They are all just variations, different textbooks, for teaching the same subject matter. Different geometry textbooks. The book may be slightly different, with a slightly different focus, etc. but the geometry is the same.
You haven’t learned WCK. You have only learned the Lee Shing curriculum. That’s it. WCK is fighting – it is riding the bike. Or, to be more accurate, it is fighting in a certain, specific way using certain specific tools. No fighting, no riding the bike, no WCK. The curriculum only teaches you things you need to ride the bike without ever really riding it. Until you are riding the bike, you can’t say that you have learned to ride the bike.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1063904]Okay, sounds great, but on the other side (the side of reason) can you show us any–ANY–ANY evidence at all–one single example anywhere–of this in actual fighting?[/QUOTE]
Listen, if I’m the ONLY one that thinks like this, or has trained like this on the forum, then the only way you will believe is to come and see me in the UK and feel it for yourself! No point in trying to find a Youtube clip dude, as even anyone I know with any skill that could do this sort of thing with their eyes closed isn’t interested in self promotion! Or fighting for that matter!
Conditioning the body and legs in this way is a long and arduous process, and quite dangerous really, especially if you want to take the skill into old age. It’s not for everybody but I’m proud of how far I went, even though I admit it wasn’t that far at all. It was far enough to not be afraid of a MT leg kick.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]Your not kicking the posts with your shins as hard as you can.[/QUOTE]
I say it again. You’re a funny guy T!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]WCK is WCK. Lineage is bullsh1t. [/QUOTE]
Keep saying it and you will believe yourself, even if deep down you know you’re wrong. Lineage is family. Family is EVERYTHING.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]All lineage is just someone’s particular way of teaching WCK, the same art. Lee Shing WCK is nothing special. Neither is CSL WCK. Or WSL WCK. Or Gu Lao WCK. They are all just variations, different textbooks, for teaching the same subject matter. Different geometry textbooks. The book may be slightly different, with a slightly different focus, etc. but the geometry is the same.[/QUOTE]
So who then has the original textbook that Ip Man possessed? Robert Chu?? Please…
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]You haven’t learned WCK. You have only learned the Lee Shing curriculum. That’s it. WCK is fighting – it is riding the bike.[/QUOTE]
Yawn!! So boring…
“The way to heaven is to benefit others and not injure. The way of the sage is to act but not compete.” Lao-Tzu
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]Your not kicking the posts with your shins as hard as you can.[/QUOTE]
I say it again. You’re a funny guy T!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]WCK is WCK. Lineage is bullsh1t. [/QUOTE]
Keep saying it and you will believe yourself, even if deep down you know you’re wrong. Lineage is family. Family is EVERYTHING.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]All lineage is just someone’s particular way of teaching WCK, the same art. Lee Shing WCK is nothing special. Neither is CSL WCK. Or WSL WCK. Or Gu Lao WCK. They are all just variations, different textbooks, for teaching the same subject matter. Different geometry textbooks. The book may be slightly different, with a slightly different focus, etc. but the geometry is the same.[/QUOTE]
So who then has the original textbook that Ip Man possessed? And think about it, you may THINK that different approaches end up teaching the same stuff, but according to my experience of posting here that’s just NOT true dude.
Different teaching produces different results. If NONE are wrong, what IS Wing Chun?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1063912]You haven’t learned WCK. You have only learned the Lee Shing curriculum. That’s it. WCK is fighting – it is riding the bike.[/QUOTE]
Yawn!! So boring…
“The way to heaven is to benefit others and not injure. The way of the sage is to act but not compete.” Lao-Tzu
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063914]Conditioning the body and legs in this way is a long and arduous process, and quite dangerous really, especially if you want to take the skill into old age. It’s not for everybody but I’m proud of how far I went, even though I admit it wasn’t that far at all. It was far enough to not be afraid of a MT leg kick.[/QUOTE]MT leg kick doesn’t just have low targets. Anywhere between knee and hip is also fair game as far as leg targets are concerned. How do you ‘condition’ the thigh? It’s a game of attrition.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063903]
Er… Yes in fact I have. Our Plum Flower Wooden Man has an array of legwork, which fyi we all practised with bare feet or socks only.
[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with conditioning your shins? 
[QUOTE=CFT;1063931]MT leg kick doesn’t just have low targets. Anywhere between knee and hip is also fair game as far as leg targets are concerned. How do you ‘condition’ the thigh? It’s a game of attrition.[/QUOTE]
By having it whacked for long periods with sticks either at someone elses hands or your own dude! It’s all part of Iron Shirt training which was general stuff for me as a kid and when I started Wing Chun. Its also something I believe Lee Shing specialized in and taught Austin Goh (& my Sifu of course!)
Squats also do a decent job, but if it’s ‘contact’ your training to defend and take, you better train that contact in the first instance and be very careful in doing so. THIS is what a good Sifu is there for imho. To assess and monitor you so you don’t get injured!!!
[QUOTE=m1k3;1063943]What does that have to do with conditioning your shins? [/QUOTE]
Well, I would advise that you can’t drill a ‘contact point’ of the leg, like the shin, without exposing the WHOLE body which includes the feet. That would just be unwise and unbalanced imho.
Also, I should say at this point that my Sifus wooden man leg was/is very ‘rounded’. It had no sharp edges or knee like I see mostly in use today. Specially built to order I think, by Lee Shing himself. And that thing could be kicked at full power if you dared, but it takes time and patience to build to that extreme.
Time and patience was exactly what we all had back in 1994.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1063914]No point in trying to find a Youtube clip dude, as even anyone I know with any skill that could do this sort of thing with their eyes closed isn’t interested in self promotion! Or fighting for that matter![/QUOTE]
So what is the explanation for the existence of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDQjyD9FB7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOiiI_hgFCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeGuespXcKs
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;1064034]So what is the explanation for the existence of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDQjyD9FB7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOiiI_hgFCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeGuespXcKs[/QUOTE]
That would be my kung fu uncles ‘showreels’. And he promotes himself how he chooses. Probably put up online by one of his many eager students. All filmed a few moons ago. He’s now into healing more than fighting I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFyq9vGg-6g
Ah! THIS would be an experiment conducted by yours truly! Produced for a little gathering in the British Museum where we hosted an event to raise awareness about Lee Shing and his contribution to Chinese Martial Arts in the UK.
No ‘self’ promotion. No money made. No students gained! Just something I shared on Youtube as an experiment.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1064056]That would be my kung fu uncles ‘showreels’. And he promotes himself how he chooses. Probably put up online by one of his many eager students. All filmed a few moons ago. He’s now into healing more than fighting I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFyq9vGg-6g
Ah! THIS would be an experiment conducted by yours truly! Produced for a little gathering in the British Museum where we hosted an event to raise awareness about Lee Shing and his contribution to Chinese Martial Arts in the UK.
No ‘self’ promotion. No money made. No students gained! Just something I shared on Youtube as an experiment.[/QUOTE]
ring fights staff…