Hey Guys, I’ve been learning Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji for the past 8 years. I started out in Hung Gar.
I’m interested in learning some Northern Longfist as a kind of bridge between my two main styles and to further my understanding of kung fu in general.
(Later on I’m interested in studying some of the rarer Southern styles that may have fed into Choy Lay Fut ie Hung, Li, Mok, Choy and Lau.)
Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji may have a common origin in some “mother” style.
I’m not trying to be a form collector per se. I’m more interested in understanding CLF and Chen Taiji better.
What’s a good place to start form wise? What could I learn on my own?
What is classified as “Shaolin” Longfist these days seems to include several different longfist “styles” into one curriculum.
The forms I’ve heard mentioned are
-Tan Tui
-Hong Quan
-Gong Li Quan
-Mi Zong Quan
-Tai Tzu Quan
-Fan Zi Quan
-Pi Qua Quan
-Tong Bei Quan
Looking for connectives can be a lot of fun as well as frustrating.
If I was in your position I would look for the connectives within the styles that you currently study. I would pursue higher level studies of both styles. You may find connectives within theory, inner structure, names of techniques, etc.; for example, you may want to connect with the Chan family of the Choy Li Fut style (no, I do not know them) or the Chen family of Chen style. Simply going to another unrelated style will not accomplish that for you.
good luck on your journey, my only advice is try to find a school or a teacher that teaches traditionally and with the fighting elements of the style still intact rather than just forms. I’d hate for you to become disgruntled or disenchanted due to watering down.
Speaking of which, if you remember my thread on butterfly kicks, I have some new info/insight for yet another possibilty. The theory suggests that the way most people perform the butterly kick ( like an arial or gymnastics butterfly) is very misleading and may misrepresent the technique which is simply to duck and kick towards the opponent. It should look more like a skip than an arial …i dunno if this paints a picture of what I’m trying to say..anyway…good luck again, peace.
Fu Pow,
Some time back, I started learning Northern Shaolin, Baji and Taiji Mei Hua Tang Lang Chuan (all from the same master) for very much the same reasons as you want to do it. I felt I was “matrure” in my CLF to not “mix” strategies etc. up, and thought it would be a good idea to get more experience in another style. I did have some Northern Shaolin training many years back, but it wasn’t anything really substantial (and different to what Im learning now).
My biggest obsticle to date, has been to drop the CLF postures and body (if you know what I mean) when I do Mantis and Baji. Those two styles have totally different ways of generating power, and at first I felt that I was way to relaxed when I did my forms (but you do chen taiji, so there should be no problem). The mantis has different stances than CLF (most of the time your back leg is bend completely) and this also got to me.
I feel that so far, baji benefited my CLF. The mantis is still new to me, and I haven’t spend enough time on it to really get the complete feel for it (although I have learned 2 sets already). Another thing that got to me with the mantis was the difference in ‘blocking’ or temporary hold between this TMH Mantis and CLF. In the beginning I kept on trying to deflect the strike in the same was as a cumlay in clf, which was not what my teacher wanted, but obviously after some time, you get the feel for it.
As for weapons, its great to get another perspective on the uses of weapons from another teacher, but I felt that there wasn’t much difference between my CLF saber form and the shaolin warrior saber I learned.
click on the long fist section. Master Wang had included the bulk of the empty hand sets of “Shaolin Long fist system”. The “shaolin long fist” system are not all shaolin forms. they are the collections of forms which made up the shaolin curriculum from Nanjing MA Institute circa early chinese republic days. These are forms which were shaolin originated/based/influenced.
No application shown, and Master Wang only walk through the forms, but you don’t often get to see that many traditional forms performed from start to finish for free.
Originally posted by MasterKiller I get a 404 on John Wang’s videos…
what you talkin’ about willis?
You can’t download any video clips from the long fist page? I just download the miao dao form and started to download the lian bu form just to check if these clips are up. They are and I am on a dial-up. Try it again.
Some of them work, but I can’t get the Cha Chuan and some of the others to download. I get a 404. They just happen to be the first ones I tried, so I assumed all of them were down.
Can someone tell me what “styles” of long fist these forms are from?
(BTW, I must say that what I have seen of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan I really like it most of the long fist I’ve seen. It seems to have quality about it that is hard to place. )
Tan Tui - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan
Si Lo Pen Da - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan
Lan Bo Chuan - Performed by John Wang
Kung Li Chuan - Performed by John Wang
Mai Fu #1 - Performed by John Wang
Mai Fu #2 - Performed by John Wang
Shi Tzi Ton - Performed by John Wang
Pao Chuan #3 - Performed by John Wang
Cha Chuan #4
Shaw Hu Yen - Performed by John S. Wang
Little Five Hands - Performed by John S. Wang
Little Five Hands (2 men form) - Performed by John S. Wang’s student
Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B]Thanks for the link!
Can someone tell me what “styles” of long fist these forms are from?
(BTW, I must say that what I have seen of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan I really like it most of the long fist I’ve seen. It seems to have quality about it that is hard to place. )
Tan Tui - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan
chinese muselm (probably cha)
Si Lo Pen Da - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan
Shi Tzi Ton - Performed by John Wang
Shaw Hu Yen - Performed by John S. Wang
Praying mantis
Lan Bo Chuan - Performed by John Wang
shaolin “dragon” form, there’s some debate on this.
Mai Fu #1 - Performed by John Wang
Mai Fu #2 - Performed by John Wang
Pao Chuan #3 - Performed by John Wang
Originally posted by MasterKiller Some of them work, but I can’t get the Cha Chuan and some of the others to download. I get a 404. They just happen to be the first ones I tried, so I assumed all of them were down.
They were all working several months ago when it first went up. there has been some changes to the site to host some demo for the emptyflower crowd to download. You know your sig say you are a “sooner”, well, you know if you snooze, you lose. A real “sooner” would have been scouting out the site months before Master Wang put it up.
All the forms except “Shaw Hu Yen”, “Lan Bu Chuan” and “Gong Li Chuna” are all from Long Fist family in San Dong where my GM Han came from. Because Long Fist family practice several Muslim forms, so people also called us Jiao Men(Muslum) Chuan. In the past, Long Fist family practice all those forms, and those were the forms that passed down to us.
Lan Bo Chuan and Gong Li Chuan were taught in Nan Jing Central Martial Art Institute as standard meterials. This version of Tan-Tui also came from the institute. Shaw Hu Yen was from Seven Star Praying Mantis, passed down by GM Wang, Song Ting.
The materials on the lists should be categorized as Han’s family forms, because that was what GM Han chosed as core empty hand forms to teach his students.
Great thing to start out with for any LF in my opinion. Many different versions (almost as many versions as schools that teach it) but with a lot of similar movements… I need to start doing my tan tui again.
-Hong Quan
This is either a group of forms from Song shan or a system…
-Gong Li Quan
This is just one form, Chin Woo and other longfist schools have it in there system
-Mi Zong Quan
This is one of the systems I’d like to get into, has some of the funnest forms to watch, and from what I’ve gathered, has some great teachers around too.
-Tai Tzu Quan
Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is a system, and there are several LF schools that have different tai tzu forms in it.. as RD will tell you.
-Fan Zi Quan
I don’t know much about Fan Zi except of the modern stuff I’ve seen here or there.
-Pi Qua Quan
Another I don’t know much about, except what I’ve seen of the modern forms.
-Tong Bei Quan
Songshan has a couple of tong bei forms and there are several Tongbei systems, and I think a couple of other LF systems have tongbei forms in it. There was a good article a few months ago (I think it was OSO talking about it) in Journal for Asian Martial arts.
First of all, it is really nice of you to post the information, a good post, especially for people that did not access the article here.
I believe the infomation you posted was from the article published by Adam Hsu in the magazine. Many of those were his own interpretation. Actually, we can not really tell which form came from whom mostly. GM Han seldom talked about those things. He was more interested in the skills and the moves in the forms. Adam like to reseach history by himself and seldom verified with his senior LF brothers. Many of the information mentioned in the article were not known even by GM Han’s senior students. And Adam was the youngest among all. That was where the confusion came from. Story about Mai Fu in his article is very doubtful, because we have Mai Fu fifth routine also. I believe the infomation about the forms taught in NJ MA institute is correct, but Long Fist family has been practicing Cha, Hua, Hon, Pao for generations. I believe GM Han had known several forms taught in the institute before he went to the institute. He might have refined the forms in the Institute. There are many LF people in San Dong did not go to NJ MA institute that pratice those forms.
San Tai Jian is another example. It is designed by the teachers from the institute. It might have come from some particular teacher originally, but it was rearranged or even redesigned by the teachers together to make it better. The two person San Tai Dui Jian was from that effort.
On the other hand, his information is also very good in terms of who is who teaching in the Institute. Also the teachers that were teaching when GM Han was young. Other than that, readers should use their own judgement when looking at the articles from the magazines. After all, it was an article in a magazine not a history book. But, today we don’t have many information like that. Any information is good for certain aspect. His effort deserves our praise. Maybe, someday we can really put all the puzzles together.
So would you say that Tong Bei and Tai Tzu are some of the older long fist styles that other long fist styles evolved from?
It sounds like Tan Tui might be the best place to start though. I’d like to have a teacher but perhaps if this form is relatively simple I could pick it up from a video.
Any suggestions on video?
(And yes…I know its not as good as learning it from a teacher!)
San Tsai Jian (three powers sword or something to that effect) has an interesting history.
I am not sure exactly how it works in with the Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan..but there are some indications that it has some connections to a set done in Hsing I as well.
In addition, if it was a modern routine from Nanjing, it harkened back to older times. Not many routines from those older times are still around…and I am talking quite old. However, with those really old sets, it was not that uncommon to have them have two halves. Then you would take the first half for one person and the second for the other and have a two person set. This practice has fallen by the wayside for most traditional arts and is all but unheard of for contemporary wushu.
