OK, I’ve read some really good posts about some of the forms history in NSLF - notably Lien Bu Chuan and Er Lu Mai Fu.
Anybody heard of Little Five Hands? Or how about the Emperor’s Long Fist form? Any good history on those?
Emperor’s Long Fist was said to be created by the Emperor Chao, Kuang Yin shortly after he took the throne in 960 AD. He was the Tai Tzu of the Sung dynasty. His form was taught to Shaolin, and preserved.
The style has many branches. The Long form is taught in 16-18 sections each roughly being 32 to 64 or 72 moves in length.
The style has both Northern and Southern divisions today, and was at the height of it’s practice in the Ming Dynasty where it was spread quite prolifically through the military. It had influance on Preying Mantis, Chen Taji Quan, and either was influanced by, or influanced Northern Hong Chuan, Cha Fist and others. Certian branches are known as “Gun Fist”, “Six Stance Fist” and the animal for the style is the Monkey.
In addition, there is a short style of the same name that was developed in the Southern Sung dynasty supposedly by the Imperial family to rapidly train troops. This branch started out as simple basic training, but eveloved to be quite deep in practice. Originally it is said to have had 6 forms, today most branches have 8 core sets, but the manuals I’m told document as many as 72 small, short sets.
For more info, please visit my site at www.royaldragonusa.net
Thanks RD! Very cool site you have there!
As far as the Emperor’s Long Fist forms, are there different versions? I’m sure certain lineages kept certain forms, and other lineages may have changed some moves here or there (it always seems to happen, i.e. Hung Gar, Mantis, even Songshan Shaolin).
Under the Long Fist page here, there’s an Emperor’s Long Fist, look familiar?
Emperors boxing
We do a form called Emperors boxing which is a two man form
and utilizes longfist technique (no kicks as that was considered unbecoming of the emperor and considered base of dirty) It also utilizes Chin na techniques.
R.D. - Gun fist
Your reference to “Gun Fist” - any chance that’s the same as “Cannon Fist” a.k.a. “Pao chuan” ?
peace
herb ox
Which one is the Tai Tzu one?
I have seen 2 from John Wang in the past, one was from the Southern branch, and although I didn’t recognise the specific form, it’s flavor is distinctly from the Southern Tai Tzu Quan.
The other set I saw from him is known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, or sometimes Xiao Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It’s the third set in my system if you count Wu Bu Chuan as the first.
The Preying Mantis guys have a version of that set as well.
Gun Fist is not Pao Chuan.
Sometimes it is known as Gun Fist of the Chao school, becasue it descended from the Tai Tzu style. It looks like and expanded mix of the Northern, and Southern to me. I can’t be sure, I only have 2 sets of it on file, and I never worked them out.
Reemul,
Are you doing a Tai Tzu two man set?? Or Three Emperor’s Pao Chuan?
Interesting on the no kicks, Tai Tzu has lots of them, and it was created by the Emperor himself. I guess each dynasty has it’s quirks ehy??
sorry guys, Mr. Wang changed his webpage for a while, so the Emperor’s Long Fist clip won’t be on it for a couple more days
RD;
Excellent posts and websites for Tai Tzu.
YYD;
Good links. I liked the Mongolian Shuai Jiao clips, too.
Thanks for the complements. My web skills suck, and I basically did that wihtout an editor. I made it in word, and HTML code.
I’d like to redo it, as I have ideas for a cooler site, but I just don’t have the time right now…or anytime soon for that matter.
Oh, I am also discussing this on Dragon’s list (Amidst lineage wars)
RD - Funny you should mention Pao Chuan, Master Wang is performing it as well and a host of other Long Fist forms on his website. You just have to keep checking out his page (listed above). I think he’s working on his site, so the Long Fist forms show up here and there vs. the SC clips.
Anyway, RD (and others) I would like to get your opinion of the forms. Just curious, NOT THAT I DOUBT MASTER WANG AT ALL (just wanted to clarify that).
I’m only qualified to judge the Tai Tzu set, and from what I see it is done prety much the same as any other one I have. I have 3 copies of that set documented, one is Wang’s, the other two are shot from the stands at a competition in Taiwan. All three are different versons of the same form.
Tai Tzu seems to have three main northern branches, one that resembles Shaolin Kung Fu, Cha Fist, and the other Hong Fist. John Wang’s looks like it’s from a Cha Fist looking branch.
Royal Dragon
> I have 3 copies of that set documented, one is Wang’s, the
> other two are shot from the stands at a competition in Taiwan.
> All three are different versons of the same form.
In Taiwan, there is only one Tai Zu Chang Quan which is from our GM Han’s line. The reason they look different was because they were taught by different people and were interpreted differently or not completely correct.
Long Fist family is a BIG family. Many many people practice Long Fist, but not many people are good at it. Because there are many people practice the form, there are going to have many different interpretation of the form. Most people did not learn directly from our lineage. That is why there are some difference versions of the same form. Tai Zu Chang Quan is a trade mark form of Long Fist family. But, if the form is learned by some people practice southern styles or other styles originally, it will be interpreted totally differently. And, Southern styles are more popular in Taiwan originally. So, it is normal to generate many different versions of the same form in Taiwan or any where else. That is why people in my teacher’s generation call themselves Han’s family, not just Long Fist family. In our mind, Long Fist is more of a general term of our style. Our teacher’s style is really what we call ourselves, because it is our teacher who affect us the most, not our grand teacher or our Long Fist uncles. Form historical point of view is the same. How and where the forms came from are not that important. The important part is how our teacher taught us and how our teacher interprets the forms and how we learn from the teaching. That is why we call ourselves Jian’s family, because my teacher’s last name is Jian. This is very very traditioanl Chinese way of expressing our lineage.
YinYangDagger
I hope the explanation can show you my view of historical view of Chinese martial arts. It is that where the forms came from are not that important. How much you can learn or gain from the form is important. How much you can learn are from your teacher(s), but not from the family or styles. I hope I can give you or anyone more of our Long Fist history, but the history part simply was not that important in our Chinese martial art society and wasn’t recorded or passed down as we would like. Individualism actually play a big role in our Chinese martial art society.
Cheers,
I understand what you’re saying RY, but I have a thirst for history, not just martial, but all, including European medieval, Japanese, Russian, etc. I just like history 
RY,
Yes, there are different versions of the set. This goes to a much larger scale as well. Tai Tzu although still Long Fist wherever I find it, is organised differently depending on the line it comes from.
Do you have and familiarity with the school run by the son of the late Liao Wuchang? They are a big Tai tzu school out of Taiwan. Liao Wuchang specialised in the Tai Tzu Monkey. He called his system “Stone Killer Monkey”. I have a few of thier Long Fist sets documented, as well as thier Southern Tai Tzu Quan and a couple of thier Southern Monkey sets.
“Liao Wuchang specialised in the Tai Tzu Monkey. He called his system “Stone Killer Monkey”. I have a few of thier Long Fist sets documented, as well as thier Southern Tai Tzu Quan and a couple of thier Southern Monkey sets.”
Very interesting, anytime you have time to go in greater depth on this, feel free 
That’s all I really know. I know a Tai Tzu senior in Australia who is of that line, but my first hand knowledge is limited to the above, and some sets I have from thier comercial video avaliabe at Shaolin Inc.
I have another of him doing various stick forms too. It’s all in Chinese though, but I hear the term “Tai Tzu Quan” repeted over and over during the explanations of each set, so I think they are all Tai Tzu stick sets from his system.
Liao Wuchang is my hero, because he was older than dirt when these video’s were done, and he still moved with such strength, and energy.
You can go to Empty flower, and see a few clips of him throwing his son around. He’s much younger in those clips, but still old.
http://www.emptyflower.com/video.html
The two man set he’s doing looks like the drills I have from “San Pan” a two man set taught in the Southern Tai Tzu Quan system. I don’t actually have the set myself though, just the drill he’s doing that are suposedly derived from that set.
From Liao Wuchang’s system I have
- San Zhen (performed by Liao Wuchang)
- 4 doors (performed by his Son)
- Cutting slice (Not sure who performs it, but he looks like a young Liao Wuchang, possibly a younger son??)
- Three gates (Performed by his son)
5 Yi Lu (performed by his son) - Two man drills derived from San Pan (Performed by Liao Wuchang and his Son)
- A monkey set (performed by his son)
- The Monkey set you see him doing on Empty flower (Which was my source for that set BTW)
- A snipit of a broad sword and shield set (performed by Liao Wuchang)
Plus I have a bunch of stick stuff including him doing a banner, flag set.
I have worked out the entire empty hand style except for the Monkey stuff. I am looking forward to decipering the forms with someone someday. If I ever get rich, I’d love to go to Taiwan and see the school his son runs. Maybe ask for corrections on the sets as I know ther are genral public versions for the comercial tapes i’m sure. I’d love to get the original versions.
Royal Dragon
I know Liao WuChang. I saw him performed all the time when I grew up. He and my teacher are good friends. His style is called TaiZu. It is a southern shaolin style, popular in Taiwan too. All the forms he taught are called Tai Zu Quan in general. But, each form has its name. Like the forms in our Long Fist are called Long Fist, but each form has its own name. The Tai Zu Chang Quan in our Long Fist is only a form, not a style. It is easy to confuse people. Master Liao’s TaiZu Quan is totally different from our system. It is a typical southern shaolin, where ours are typical northern shaolin. Chinese just like to use TaiZu for name.
I don’t think master Liao did Long Fist at all. Maybe his decendents have learn some Long Fist forms. Today, the young generation who learn our Long Fist forms are prabably two generations younger than me. When a form passed down by many generations and by different people, it changes. It can be so different that I have hard time to identify. That is why China has so many styles.