> I am not sure exactly how it works in with the Nanjing Central
> Guoshu Guan..but there are some indications that it has some
> connections to a set done in Hsing I as well.
I’m not try to argue, just showing my side of reasoning.
If San Tsai Jian was taught by master Zu, Guo-Fu originally like Adam Hsu said in his article, then it is possible from Xing Yi. Because I think master Zu practiced Xing Yi. Even that, I still believe San Tsai was designed by many teachers because of the way it was designed. It covers too many usage of Jian and without any particular styles. Also, two person sparring Jian forms were not common in the past actually as I was taught. The San Tsai Jian we have today was the efforts by many great teachers. Once a form was created, it is easy to modify or even create another one with different flavor. But, the first one was not easy to come up with. Personally, I have not seen another two person sparring Jian beside San Tsai for at least thirty years. I have heard or read about other people performed other two person jian forms once or twice, but that’s it. I have seen some video clips of two person sparring Jian here and there, but all of them were parts of San Tsai with some variations or different ways of practicing it. There are many two man ‘exercises’ on jian, but very few two man sparring Jian ‘forms’.
I’m a bit confused as to what you’re saying Mr. Young. It sounds as if your saying that San Tsai Jian was later developed into a two man form? As I know San Tsai Jian, it doesn’t need to be developed into a two man form since it is one form split in two as it was originally designed. I have seen teachers change it a little for various reasons. Such as swaping the back for the middle so that one side stays offensive through the middle. But the basic techniques don’t change. Targets may be adjusted for the flow of the form but not the basic principles.
Kun Wu Jian is also another great 2 person fight form. I have never had a clear explaination of what style these forms originated from. Only that they are Wu Dang sword forms.
> I’m a bit confused as to what you’re saying Mr. Young. It
> sounds as if your saying that San Tsai Jian was later developed
> into a two man form?
You are right. What I was taught from my teacher was that San Tsai Jian was created and designed by the teachers in the Institute, both single person and two person sparring part. This is the version I believe also. But, It might have come from some teacher originally, then it was modified to become what we have today if that was the case. No one seems to know for sure about the later case.
Your Kun Wu Jian probably came from master Liu, Win Ciao. It’s a different Kun Wu Jian than what LF has. The Kun Wu Jian we practice does not have two person sparring part. I believe master Liu made it two person sparring form. I remember seeing it performed in Taiwan, but it was long time ago. It is more like two man Jian exercises than two man form to me. I also believe master Liu had added a lot of his own interpretation of Jian into it. You can compare the two and tell the difference, since you have learn both of them.
I have learned San Tsai Jian - matter of fact, it was my first straight sword set…
I do not know if it was based on an older set and then modified, created from a number of older sets, or a brand new set created at the Nanjing Guoshu Guan… However, there have, as I said, been some connections to a routine of similar structure and name to Hsing I. How that goes…did the Hsing I folks adopt it since the 1920’s or was it theirs to begin with…or was it like some sets, used widely by many styles…who knows.
The routine could be old…or it could simply be nostalgic. Some older sets, mostly now lost, had the two halves construction where you did the first half and your partner did the second to learn how to use it all. This was more true of the simpler and more direct routines. In fact, one of the first long fist barehand sets I learned a number of years ago was like that.
I suspect that if the history I learned is true, that what happened was that back in the day when routines were more direct, they did this to keep the question/answer aspect - the solutions for the moves were found in one place - type of thing. Then, as the routines got more complex or more artful (human nature is to embellish things anyway), it was either no longer the “fashion” to do this or it simply was not practical.
Right you are Mr. Young. Grandmaster Liu did teach my teacher, Sifu Tsou the sword that I know. I also learned versions of San Tsai and Kun Wu Jian in my previous Northern Shaolin program, but after learning them the way Grandmaster Liu taught my teacher, I actually feel like I can use the Jian as a weapon. Not that I walk around town with it. LOL
To take a crack at Fu Pow’s inquiry, I believe Chang Chuan is more than a bridge between your systems. It is a great foundation for all systems that follow such as your chen tai chi. In my case, aspects of chen, baji, piqua, bagua and mantis can be found in chang chuan originally. If you only learn Tan Tui, Pao Chuan and Cha Chuan forms, you would have a good foundation for your other systems. That said, I sure would like to some day learn your chang chuan chin na form Mr. Young.
I once heard from someone that a real tong bei master wont teach any students who has biggish chest muscles. I know this sounds funny, but I was told so by someone who is very serious about his tong bei.
Ed
That may be true. The generation of Jin in Tong Bei (Extended Arm or back) started with the foot, translated via leg, waist, back and stored in the shoulder and released tru the hand.
There are 5 basic palms.
All the other moves are evolved from them.
You have to relax all the way. You extend far and hit long. (Fong Zhang Ji Yuan)
It is almost like a whip that lashes out. Your foot is one end and your hand is the other end of the whip or leash.
Tong Bei has big piles of Classics, poems about the moves and apps. I used to recite them or even sing songs at heart. Yap, Yap that is the "70.
The tactics and strategy encompass all the principles of Long Fists.
You relax your shoulder to be longer in your arm. Big muscles in the chest or upper arm may be in the way of your flexibility and impossible for right Jin generation which is from your whole body.
as MK, suggested, if you are interesting in the origins of chang quan, cha quan would be a good start. if you’re curious to get a sense of what some of the material looks like before buying some of the vcds by Liu Hong-Chi, check out the cha quan here: http://www.jiayo.com/videos/classical.html
you will see that some of the forms have been ‘wushu-ized,’ but there u can still appreciate the tan tui as well as road #4 (the Honghumingquan clip)
San Tsai Jian is a very complicated form. Not many people can really manage it, although lots of people have learned it. If you feel you can use Jian as weapon, you should go back and serious look at it. In the Institute, it is THE sword form. That will tell you how important it is. Also, that is why it is difficult. The problem today for most people practicing it is that we learned it too easily. In Long Fist, that is usually the first sword form we learned. Many of my LF brothers thought it is a beginner’s sword form and did not take it seriously. They often tried to see if they can learned something more advance. But, they totally took the wrong direction and never could get anywhere. I have seen this over and over again. This is a form designed by a group of the best masters in China at that time, including several famous styles. The treasure is already in your hand. If you can seriously analyze it, you will find treasures.
> That said, I sure would like to some day learn your chang
> chuan chin na form Mr. Young.
Chang Chuan Chin Na may not be the right term. Every styles should have some Chin Na moves. Chin Na is not only from Chang Chuan. While in the NJ Institute, GM Han was hired to do the reseach on Chin Na. He actually got paid to do that. He researched and analyzed all the Chin Na moves he can find and came up with the Chin Na we have today. Of course, with his life time teaching it, he made it better.
And, someday in the future if we meet, I’ll be happy to show you some of our Chin Na applications.
The difference in learning sword from my current teacher as opposed to my previous Northern Shaolin teacher, is that forms are basically an after thought. We spent about 6 months before learning san tsai jian, learning 15 basics of offensive/defensive application. Training them with intensive stepping and two man drills and than when learning the form, identifying every basic principle from every single posture and transition. Also, learning two man form we are breaking it into levels of touch and move, to options of targets, to just move. And of course, having to adjust to different opponents sizes, strengths and speeds. I’m sure you couldn’t learn a form and expect to be able to fight with a weapon and I’m also sure that san tsai jian doesn’t give you a complete view of how to use sword. But if I could only learn one sword form, I think that would be it. Kun Wu Jian would be a close second.
Chin na is also a main focus of all our styles. Especially chen tai chi. If you know my teachers background with shuai chiao, praying mantis and baguazhang you can understand why. Many if the applications I learned from Chang Chuan have chin na components. But when I saw the video (John Wang posted I think?) of the two man chin na form from chang chuan, I was blown away. I realize this is a bit of a specialty form but I think it would be a great teaching tool. I would love to learn even a few pieces of it. I hope to have the opportunity to meet you some day.
“There are many two man ‘exercises’ on jian, but very few two man sparring Jian ‘forms’.”
Hi Robert,
You make some very interesting points concerning Jian contact sets. In fact contact sets in general from imperial times are now very rare. In the past these sets (traditionally called dui da or dui lian) were a more significant part of training then they are now. There are many aspects of TCM weapons usage and training that can not be experienced or, practically speaking, practiced with out them.
In past times, contact sets were guarded and generally taught to peers - these two factors contributed to the disappearance of many dui da.
