In another thread, useless techniqes, or inneffective ones,contained within the TCMA forms, were mentioned as well as Sanjuro Ronin mentioning how there are things in Kyokushin that got changed not to his liking. I would be interested in not so much as hearing who agrees or disagrees, but specific techs that you feel are inneffective, low percentage, unrealistic, or downright useless crap.
Of course, we can go back and forth saying the same old,“Just because you don’t understand,or can’t make it work, doesn’t mean it’s useless…” yeah, we’ve heard it, and often this is the case. But…I think there are definately cases where due to the prioritizing of forms in the past several generations, that this might have occurred. Let’s hear your thoughts.
Well this should be interesting:
Butterfly palms, most long swinging strikes (too slow, telegraphed), pressure point striking, wing chun bung sao
stupid drills where one person punches slow as hell and leaves a fully extended punch out there, cause thats what really happens:rolleyes:
I’ll take another position, it isn’t that the techniques do not work, it is that they work IN CONTEXT
People have trouble believing this, but hopology (the study of the history of weapons) teaches us without any dispute that fighting changes over both location and time. Bare handed fighting also changed over location and time
If we throw out the trash, the bad sifu, the incompetant students, the fake applications, etc… let’s look at even the real applications
They are based upon a context; ie an expected response dictated by how people fought at that time
I use gwa choih
I expect you to respond with seung gung wu jih
I will then use Mou Sau and maang fu ha san
I expect you to rspond with Pak Sau
I will then use Haut Kiuh to set up Baahk Hok Tan Soi
I show you this “application” and none of it looks contrived or impossible to “pull off”
I can train my students very hard to they use these techniques and think in these terms
Then they go out in the street, have a confrontation, throw gwa choih and the person on the street doesn’t respond with sung gung wu jih, the tackle you!
This isn’t as crazy as it sounds. Speak to (if they are still alive) some of the old kung fu men who were in China when western boxing arrived. It confused the living heck out of them. In fact, some techniques we now take for granted were actually devised to fight western boxing
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A lot of jumping kicks.
I know there is great power in Jumping kicks, but at the same time, I doubt I would ever use one in a self defense situation.
Dont get me wrong, I actually quite like some jump kicks and have fun practicing them. Yet realistic self defense aspect, not very usefull. Best to be used on someone from behind suprise 
I have a lot of students who have TCMA backgrounds. We jokingly call them the “converts” 
and I’ve frequently had discussions and demonstrated this concept
My tao bouh is predicated upon my assumption you will try and lock my stance, in trap your leg and counter you lock with my own
If you aren’t using that sort of footwork, much of my footwork is irrelevant
I had a “convert” ask me about some of the CLF clips he had seen on youtube. This was after class. That night we had done a looping hook (to set up a takedown), an overhand (to set up a takedown) and spin back fist. I asked him if so, kahp and bin were different than hook, overhand and spin back fist?
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Bong Sau? We use it ALL THE TIME. But we probably use it in ways you wouldn’t think of
I have a “convert” who is a pretty high level wing chun person. He’s been with us about a year now. He says he is finding many of his techniques, but he is finding them in places he never imaged where he’d find them. He has also said that he is learnig to use them becaue we are practicing “live” as opposed to the ways he traditionally did them…
However, I also used him to demonstrate the “context” issue one night. We started trapping. I gave him a bridge, he gave me a bridge and we went back and forth, blocking, sticking, redirecting, etc… “wow” my students were really impreseed, then “now!” I broke the bridge and just started throwing punches… the structure changed, the bridging didn’t work
Wong Yan Lam and Lama Pai are famous for one real reason, they didn’t “cross the bridge” or “crush the bridge”, they AVOIDED the bridge…
Anything that requires me to do a split or knee bendy thing to punch someone in the groones.
?
useless technique? all technique is useless when not applied correctly or at the right time.
you could have a wicked right and great body structure, but if you can’t land it, your technique is null and rendered useless.
context is utterly important, the technique is used as said in context it is fine, out of context = nothing.
not understanding or being able to apply doesn’t invalidate anything. It just means you are currently unable to understand and apply.
people can say what they want and do as they like, but to disparage entire systems of martial arts amounts to ignorant rumination.
I hear it now and again how this or that won’t work. Just recently I had a guy telling me that x wouldn’t work against y.
we demonstrated and out of 10 or so attacks, x worked against 8 of the attacks and failed against 2 of them. Does that mean x doesn’t work? Not to me, it’s just means it doesn’t work every time. NO technique does. Especially not in realistic training scenarios where you are actually using intention.
beginners shouldn’t be going full bore anyway, it promotes poor structure and limioted understanding and increases risk of injury from training.
If you are getting injured from training all the time, then I would venture to say that you are training improperly and incorrectly. If you are getting injured in full bore competition or fighting, then that is normal. But training is training.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;774475]I’ll take another position, it isn’t that the techniques do not work, it is that they work IN CONTEXT
[/QUOTE]
Interesting…
Although I see a disconnect in my own practice to what you are describing. I don’t teach a,b,c scenario at all. I don’t teach expectaions of this sort. If anything I give my students smaller pieces. “Use when needed” is the general rule.
Especially in striking. “the right tool for the right job”. I guess thats the cheung keun talking. We don’t really care what the opponent does next in the scenario. That style is offensive and is concerned with overwhelming and dominating. One’s body should be choosing the next move in context with the opponents movement. Not on a preset fight plan. If a gwa choi is appropriate for the space and angle afforded to it then by all means do it. What comes next should be a matter of feel.
In addition, this is not exclusive to CMA. Paradigm context happens everwhere. Boxing, grappling, whatever. People get used to “A” invariably being followed by “B”. Every time we see someone use a tangent off of “A” we see that “B” changes or disappears all together.
Also, it all about what you can get away with and can do.
Basically what the two guys above me posted..they said it better.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;774481]I broke the bridge and just started throwing punches… the structure changed, the bridging didn’t work[/QUOTE]
I learned that little lesson about someone just throwing punches without stopping a while back. Even lousy punches if you throw them without stopping will confuse the heck out of a lot of traditional guys. It’s one of those little things that I’ve yet to see trained in a traditional school, though I’m sure some do.
Interesting question and one that almost always gets people’s panties in a bunch…I like it. Overall efficiency and effectiveness for the average person will override any consideration of style so these are just personal viewpoints.
complicated hand trapping
a lot of blocking methods
china na without striking or a serious setup for effect
pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective.
jumping kicks and any fine motor based high kicks that require a constant practice or lose effectiveness or lose effectiveness based on age.
Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat.
knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
People who use the word “complete system” yet don’t practice ANY modern weapon training…knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
People who don’t get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu’s and there abilities just because of a arts age.
People who don’t weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.
man, did I open a can of worms! We should probably break this into two topics.
One, my original querie, which was which techniques or movements in TCMA FORMS do you think are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless.
Two-which training methods are inneffective, outdated, or downright useless
and let’s stay away from the “That’s because you don’t know how to apply your technique” rant. Not that it’s neccesarally incorrect, but we can open up a third thread dealing specifically which ones you see as falling into that catagory.
This should create some interesting viewpoints, discussions and possibly open up a few doors for some. Definately for me.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;774509]
complicated hand trapping[/quote] endless hand trapping yes. handtrapping to effect, no.
a lot of blocking methods
china na without striking or a serious setup for effect
these are relative. A block or grab needs to be followed up. Blocking is useful but only with follow through.
pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective.
only when obsessed about to the exclusion of everything else.
jumping kicks and any fine motor based high kicks that require a constant practice or lose effectiveness or lose effectiveness based on age.
in other words, not for the inflexible and LAZY!
Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
again, out context spinning in front of non engaged opponent, yes. spinning to change angle because of positional change, no.
any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
two totally different concepts. One comes from video games and cartoons. Hadoken!! the other comes from focusing direction and aligning proper structure and intent.
tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
thats just your personal bias, ignorance.
People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
True , but also true in reverse.
Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat.
your best one.
knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
People who use the word “complete system” yet don’t practice ANY modern weapon training…knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
People who don’t get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu’s and there abilities just because of a arts age.
People who don’t weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.
this is all falls into the category of urban myth. Anything,“In placement of” is bad.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;774509]Interesting question and one that almost always gets people’s panties in a bunch…I like it. Overall efficiency and effectiveness for the average person will override any consideration of style so these are just personal viewpoints.
complicated hand trapping
a lot of blocking methods
china na without striking or a serious setup for effect
pressure points when looked at from a micro perspective.
jumping kicks and any fine motor based high kicks that require a constant practice or lose effectiveness or lose effectiveness based on age.
Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat.
knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
People who use the word “complete system” yet don’t practice ANY modern weapon training…knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
People who don’t get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu’s and there abilities just because of a arts age.
People who don’t weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.[/QUOTE]
With some of this I agree, but with some of it, I disagree. For instance, “china na without striking or a serious setup for effect”.
Chin Na does not involve striking. Chin Na is Literally Grabs, Holds and Releases. As soon as you strike, You are leaving the realm of China Na. And If the lock cannot hold, then the Kungfu person will move to another attempt at resolution of the conflict.
Methods are methods. Every method should strive towards doing it’s maximum intended thing while being trained. So, if someone has a lot of blocking methods, that’s what they have in their system. Minutia is what a lot of systems are about. Categorizing and devising a method to employ what has been discovered. No harm no foul imo. might spend a little more time than you like on blocking methods, but there you have it.
Spinning techs where you turn your back on the attacker.
Spinning techniques? Talk to Carter about it :p, or the to large to mention amount of fighters who can and have legitimately pulled off spinning back fist and spinning kicks. And by the act of spinning you will turn your back on your attacker at some point in the spin.
complicated hand trapping
Hand trapping doesn’t have to be complicated, but I think it’s easier to say that anything that takes x amount of time more than the counter is not a very useful thing to be practicing. This doesn’t mean trapping is not a useful skill to develop through whatever method.
any form of chi blast or focus of chi into a martial strike.
what’s chi?
tma form training as a serious combat training aid.
what do you call “serious” and how do you train for “serious”? How do you acquire correct structure? How do you learn the shape of what you need to be so your structure doesn’t collapse when pressure is applied? Patterns is one step on a long path, form is always required. Methods of learning and maintaining proper structure and form in the delivery of attacks or defenses are found in every martial art whether they be a 3 part combo or 20x3part combos strung together. If one was to only practice form and nothing else, then they would be lacking, but anyone who doesn’t pay attention to their form is wholly lacking.
People who think practicing there tma against a non-grappler gives them the ability to defend against a trained grappler.
Who are these people? And a gun can defend against anything. lol Why can’t any martial art defend against a trained grappler? say i hit the grappler with my baseball bat in the jaw as he runs at me. I think that people who think that a trained grappler and his way of practice can beat a guy with a gun or a baseball bat is out there! 
Any takedown which binds yourself to the attacker in a way that locks yourself up from an easy retreat. retreat is never easy. lol. But this I agree with. You don’t want to put yourself at a disadvantage by your own misadventure in any circumstance.
knife passing drills and complicated stripping drills
To an extent I agree with this.
iron body drills in placement of actual sparring.
I don’t think that anyone who is learning real iron body skills is passing on sparring :rolleyes: By the time you get to iron body iron anything skills you’ve been full contact sparring for a while in any legit school.
People who use the word “complete system” yet don’t practice ANY modern weapon training…knife, gun, mace, impact weapons.
With the exception of gun, there aren’t any kungfu styles that don’t have a weapon component in the military styles. In the medical styles, there of course will often not be any weapons at all, but these are complete systems. Buddhist styles, a pacifist religion, contains weapons of blunt and bladed variety in myriad constructs.
People who don’t get the idea that pre-conflict and post conflict training/study is just as important or more so than the physical.
A lot of people do understand awareness and analytics aspect of training martial art. Maybe the terminology and language that is wrapped around methods is more of a problem.
People who fall for fairy tales about there sifu’s and there abilities just because of a arts age. Seriously? So you don’t like dreamers out there in MA land? This has little to do with method or training validity and more to do with the psychological makeup of “some” people.
People who don’t weightlift because of bogus info from junky martial myths.
People who don’t body build? Or People who don’t weight lift in the accepted way of the typical north american gymnasium? What about people who do body weight exercises vigourously? What about stone locks? Iron Rings? Weighted Vests? Heavy Weapons? Kungfu has lots of weightlifting and lifting weight in an organized fashion will improve and increase strength without a doubt. I gotta say though, I don’t see a lot of heavy duty weight lifters living long periods of time or able to move with some of the relaxed power that you see in old bagua players and such. So, the argument overall is moot.
Anyway, I felt like responding to these, so there you have it. 
[QUOTE=TenTigers;774450]In another thread, useless techniqes, or inneffective ones,contained within the TCMA forms, were mentioned as well as Sanjuro Ronin mentioning how there are things in Kyokushin that got changed not to his liking. I would be interested in not so much as hearing who agrees or disagrees, but specific techs that you feel are inneffective, low percentage, unrealistic, or downright useless crap.
Of course, we can go back and forth saying the same old,“Just because you don’t understand,or can’t make it work, doesn’t mean it’s useless…” yeah, we’ve heard it, and often this is the case. But…I think there are definately cases where due to the prioritizing of forms in the past several generations, that this might have occurred. Let’s hear your thoughts.[/QUOTE]
Since I was mentioned:
In Kyokushin the over-emphasis on KYOKUSHIN competition makes people neglect hand strikes to the head and develops a “non-exsisting” haed guard.
Horrible.
No real “useless” or “ineffective” techniques in ANY of the MA I have trained, though the application of them can be highly debated.
EX:
A buddy of mine was saying how the Phoenix-eye fist is “useless” in combat.
I showed him how effective it works.
But he said, no matter how painful, in a real match too much could go wrong (injury to hand) and the adrenaline would counter the pain effect.
So we sparred.
He admitied he was wrong.
HOWEVER, I have been “forging” the PE fist for almost a year and I can ALMOST drill it full force as if it was a regualr fist and at pretty much any target.
The right tool, for the right job, in the RIGHT HANDS.
Right On…
“Since I was mentioned:
In Kyokushin the over-emphasis on KYOKUSHIN competition makes people neglect hand strikes to the head and develops a “non-exsisting” haed guard.
Horrible.”
ah, ok. I get it. Totally in agreement with you. I also noticed that there are alot of spinning hook kicks being thrown in Kyokushin comps now. Although I also see them landing with brutal effectiveness. (I still wouldn’t relay on it)
[QUOTE=TenTigers;774542]“Since I was mentioned:
In Kyokushin the over-emphasis on KYOKUSHIN competition makes people neglect hand strikes to the head and develops a “non-exsisting” haed guard.
Horrible.”
ah, ok. I get it. Totally in agreement with you. I also noticed that there are alot of spinning hook kicks being thrown in Kyokushin comps now. Although I also see them landing with brutal effectiveness. (I still wouldn’t relay on it)[/QUOTE]
Low hands = high kick KO’s.