Has anyone tried to employ, successfully or not, the flying knee entry advocated by William Cheung?
Does he teach and/or practice the forms, in the same way he demonstrates them on his tapes?
Hi Censored
I can see that your thread is geared toward TWC, but leaves some room for others to add in to the discussion. Is it OK with you if HFY is discussed here since we also use a similar motion?
yes someone jumped at me with there knee forward and I moved…
I’d love for anyone to explain that move to me, TWC or not. For example, how do you decide when to use it, and when to stay on the ground? What exactly do you gain by jumping at the opponent from a few feet away?
HFY Gate Clearance: Legs.
The use of the “knee-advance” as some might call has a specific purpose for specific moments in time in HFY usage.
Testing the field… bringing the knee up before advancing forward allows you to either attack or defend the lower gates of the body from a positional advantage: centerfield. You can either intercept kicks or deliver them as well. It looks similar to a crane stance at the highest inclination of the knee, but it is not a stance at all.
In a defensive posture, it allows you to address both left and right side of the centerline at the lower gate area of the body. It is used to protect against low kicks both straight and round. The integrity of structure is based on the HFY formula. Even in a “crane” type posture structure can be maintained against dynamic energies according to the guidelines of the HFY formula.
In an offensive moment, it is used to sweep the lower gates of potential attacks while advancing into the opponent’s space by clearing from the centerline and out to the side. This not only prevents the availability of owning center space from the opponent, but should a bridge be established during motion your mass and momentum give you the advantage in terms of spacing, energies, and timing. Whether you end up inside your opponent’s arnesal or outside of it, strategy and tactical arrays govern your position and advantages.
In either moment of defense or offense, you always address the gate being attacked first. This, otherwise known as clearing gates, allows you to assess the situation before considering a proper counter attack. The use of the advancing knee also, from a mechanical standpoint, allows you to go from a neutral-type stance to a forward-type stance, which is more agressive in use and nature. In a sense, it allows you to have defensive capabilities while being offensive WRT legwork.
This is my understanding of how the knee is used in the case you are asking about.
Re: “Use your body as a shield”
Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]Has anyone tried to employ, successfully or not, the flying knee entry advocated by William Cheung?
Does he teach and/or practice the forms, in the same way he demonstrates them on his tapes? [/B]
Hi Censored,
I’m a little confused why the title of the thread is “Use your body as a shield”. Is this the principle behind the flying knee entry technique?
It’s a great move. Not necessarily used a few feet away.
Best time is when they try to kick so it’s within range of their kick.
The raised knee protects your leg/lower torso. Moving in allows you to jam their thigh with your knee.
Doesn’t work so well just jumping from a distance when your opponent is not kicking. Use sparingly. As their thigh comes forward put your knee up to stop it. Otherwise stay on the ground.
A different approach from Muay Thai is to hit a flying knee when the opponent’s body is exposed. But since this is a WC forum, I won’t bother getting into that.
how do you decide when to use it, and when to stay on the ground? What exactly do you gain by jumping at the opponent from a few feet away?
Re: “Use your body as a shield”
Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]Has anyone tried to employ, successfully or not, the flying knee entry advocated by William Cheung?
Does he teach and/or practice the forms, in the same way he demonstrates them on his tapes? [/B]
Which Tapes?
one twc explanation
Originally posted by [Censored]
I’d love for anyone to explain that move to me, TWC or not. For example, how do you decide when to use it, and when to stay on the ground? What exactly do you gain by jumping at the opponent from a few feet away?
The move is used to bridge the kicking range on an opponent or to pursue.
As Savi said in an earlier post it provides good coverage of the lower/middle/upper gates against kick attacks and allows you to cover the distance into exchange or hand fighting range.
The move is often called a hop but it is important that the entry technique moves smoothly in one motion & level without bobbing body or head movement that will telegraph the entry.
Importantly when people first are learning this move they tend to enter too deep into the opponent or straight in smashing into each other and clashing force on force.
The entry (at least the way i was taught it) should cut diagonally across the opponent (not straight in). It should stop at contact using your bil hand as a feeler to react/follow up.
Its no good too far away as it is obvious to pick, use it just outside kicking range and explosively to bridge ranges.
Namron gave a pretty good explanation… Edmund is off…
It is not done while the enemy is in kicking range. There is a leg block/deflect but no hop.
It’s used to go from pre-contact to contact stages (a half-step or full-step brings one into the exchange stage) in an explosive manner and it works. Done properly you can even stop mid-leap. This is done by leaping more forward than up and leaping with possible interruption in mind (by leaping in a way that doesn’t require your leading leg to devote too much energy in stopping your momentum – leaping from the back leg and landing on the back leg), careful distance judging and aiming for the opponents blindside in a diagonal matter.
It is trained in our wooden dummy form. Each set of 10 begins with an entry technique in several variations. It’s not an easy technique.
It works by maximally covering your gates and groin (and everything else on your centerline), while causing your opponent to have to change direction and thus enter the contact stage on the defensive.
If the opponent does move quick enough to avoid contact stage (which can only be done by moving back–usually), the practitioner can covert the front guarding leg into a front kick, causing the opponent to have to guard, and quickly take a full step forward.
I say only back movement because the entry technique’s interruptiblity does allow the practitioner to change direction if sidestepped-- often quicker than the opponent can.
I’ve also seen it with double lop sau as opposed to bil sau. Also low side kicks, or stomps can be used too instead of fronts. It is NOT for knee strikes.
A few of my sihings and my sifu (not to mention Sigung Cheung) use it very effectively. I’m still working on it but have used it with positive results.
Also the techique is on several of his tapes, but especially on his wooden dummy tape.
Hope you don’t mind Sifu Redmond…
As anyone who’s been watching PrideFC knows, the Flying Knee has made a dramatic return to the ring. Chute Boxe team is particularly nasty with it, with Anderson Silva getting the KO on Carlos Newton (who survived Pele’s flying knee last time). Heck, even BJJ fighter Nino ‘Elvis’ Shembri managed to knock out Sakuraba starting with the knee, and Victor Belfort split Marvin Eastman wide, wide, wide open with one recently in the UFC.
Surprise and power seemed to be the deciding factors. Movements like that re-define the ideas of range as non-classically codified (a long range close range movement).
Negatives, of course, include the fact that it creates risk equal to the rewards if the opponent isn’t surprised, or if they’re sufficiently advanced in WCK where they understand balance and momentum and can just modify the incoming knee to cut you straight to the ground.
If we stick strictly to what Cheung sifu does on his video, he seems to just be using the slicing concept in WCK with his whole body in one shot. With explosiveness and surprise, I can see it being effective in the context he presents it. Many arts have movements like this, both straight ahead and from other angles.
I’m a little confused why the title of the thread is “Use your body as a shield”. Is this the principle behind the flying knee entry technique?
That’s just a very, very funny quote from the video I saw.
It is not done while the enemy is in kicking range. There is a leg block/deflect but no hop.
We must be talking about two different techniques then, because I definitely saw a hop every time.
…Many arts have movements like this, both straight ahead and from other angles.
A hop from outside kicking range, to just inside it? Name one.
Was it done by a fighter who was considerably shorter of the two? I can see it used like that. Otherwise, as far as TWC goes, I would say that is too dangerous. You don’t want to be on one leg that close to an opponent.
Are you sure it was kicking range? Which is the extent their kick would reach without stepping? Was the opponent retreating?Usually in contact stage (if the opponent doesn’t step straight back) we rely on half-steps or maybe a full step to advance.
The demos on Sifu Redmond’s site is it’s proper use with same size opponents or those with small differences in height.
If the guy was 5’ vs 6’ then I can see it happening as you described (properly).
The entry technique is more a forward lunge than a hop.
CaptinPickAxe wrote: “yes someone jumped at me with there knee forward and I moved…”
We expect you to move. It’s all part of the strategy to exploit your reaction. Obviously the person that tried that on you didn’t drill the posiblilities of what an opponent could do over and over. During an entry your target can move to the side or straight back or even charge at you. The biu sao arm moves a fraction of a second out and towards an opponents eyes before the knee goes up. This way the opponent’s attention will be focused at the arm coming at him and not at the raised knee that might execute a rib or knee kick. Your opponent can kick or punch as you are attemping to bridge the gap. All of these are taken into consideration in TWC. The entry leg can change into to a front or side kick also. Sometimes the entry is simply a fake to draw your opponent’s attention away from the real intent. Interruptability, (if that’s a word) is the most important thing in TWC. The entry isn’t some blind charge like some people might think. I can change direction mid-stream and go diagonally if my opponent goes that way. I can fake an entry to the right but change to the left mid -entry. I can land and launch a rear leg kick if my target moves out of reach. The key thing is to pressure your opponent.
I know we WC people talk of simultaneous attack and defense. That’s good in theory. But in most situations you are either attacking or defending. Timing is crucial in the entry. I’ll move around a bit before I enter. An entry from a “dead” stationary position can be detected easily be some one. The entry is used during movement, not from a dead start. I don’t know how advanced some of the TWC people are on this forum but I hope you’re training to defend against all types of punches and round, side, spinning, front kicks, etc. while doing an entry.
wouldn’t coming in with your knee raised make you rather open to being uprooted? all it takes is one leg under the kneeing leg…
wouldn’t coming in with your knee raised make you rather open to being uprooted? all it takes is one leg under the kneeing leg…
The raised knee isn’t a knee strike and dynamics are involved. And there are “what ifs” in any technique done. It’s simply used to cover your lower gate while bridging the gap between you and your opponent. This entry isn’t a fully committed move. A person should be able change direction at any time. Did you read the part where I wrote a distraction is sometimes used? Speed is another factor.
Read Rene’s post about some UFC fighters.
Purpose.
Originally posted by TjD
wouldn’t coming in with your knee raised make you rather open to being uprooted? all it takes is one leg under the kneeing leg…
You bring up an excellent question TjD, and you have to understand the purpose of the lead leg. In HFY bridging footwork, the leading leg is not used to attack the opponent with the knee. It is only used to secure the space in front of you while you advance towards them.
Some minor details: In order to protect your hind leg from attack, your shin must cover the area from the knee downward. Your foot of the advancing leg cannot trail behind your knee or the hind leg will be exposed. If you can maintain the shape and proper structure, in a sense it is very much like a shield for the legs. This is all you need to enter the opponent’s space while getting into your striking range.
In training this, it is quite clearly understood that this footwork is only used when you are advancing forward to intercept an attack or a retreating opponent. The shape/structure and use are governed by strategy and tactics rather than looks.
so the lead leg is closer in spirit to a tan sau (a wedge) than a knee?
TjD
Savi covered points I missed. Also you don’t enter square on. You enter at an angle so you have a wider base if resistance is encountered. Of course you know that resistance is futile…smile
Re: TjD
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Savi covered points I missed. Also you don’t enter square on. You enter at an angle so you have a wider base if resistance is encountered. Of course you know that resistance is futile…smile
resistance is worse than futile vs wing chun structure with a little momentum thrown in 