Transitioning to Contracts

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Oso, you know my game plan but for the sake of discussion… I coach Tanglang boxing part-time. Got the full-time day job to pay the bills and provide family insurance. And just celebrated 30 years with my company so now there are even more added perks. In my previous style, Wah Lum, Master Chan never said many nice things to his students. One thing I will never foget was him actually complimenting me on the way I handled my kung fu business affairs. He said I was very smart by keeping my job during the day and teaching at night. So that is how I have kept it over the years. And it has worked wonderful. I keep my overhead low, rent space from a hall. Well insured and have a nice web-site. Just cannot decorate and put in a fancy weapons rack.

Now I have also purposely tried to keep things stress free, like no contracts, sign up fees or mandatory uniform purchase. I charge $75 a month. I have cut back on classes as of late. I am down to 6 hours a week, but a good 6 hours. We have a lot of material to offer for this low price. I really should charge more but I am happy making this kind of money. One of the reasons for cutting back on classes, peeps these days have other things to do in their lives and so do I. Mine being my own personal training, I have a lot of material to train so I need my own time. Over the last few years I have cut back from 5 classes to 3 a week. Attendance is up and interest is up. People seem to like the extra time to do all the other things in life. Plus it gives time for the bruises to heal up. I have been told by my Shibo, you need a night off in between the banging.

All this being said, I have recently lost my training space. It was unanimous vote by students to train in the park for the rest of the summer. So I said OK, but will keep my feelers out for a space for the fall. Winters are brutal here, just cannot train outside and think I will keep students. I have a core group of 20, with the usual eb and flow of 5 to 10 on top of these. So for the summer it is rent free, and it is nice. Truthfully, this training in the park is taking some getting use to on my part. I have always had nice training halls and it is sort of comforting. Oh well it seems like most of the better Tanglang is taught in parks in Taiwan/Mainland.

I have this opportunity to rent space from a very large Church in the area. Top of the line space, with 3500 enrollment in Church. I just have to make sure I do not have a thumb down on me, just dont want to get into the situation where someone is controlling us. I have always kept things stress free, just show up and train.

Oso, unfortunately in your area it is saturated with martial arts. You have a lot to offer though and you have a great core group.

BTW, the money I make from coaching, I re-invest back into the school by furthering my studies and handing my Shibo a nice red envelope.

Thanks for the props SoCo Kungfu.

22

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775767]SoCo KungFu

Soco do you think the average person comprehends or even knows what a MC Dojo is? You and I are in the know. We understand what to look for and what to avoid. The average consumer doesn't know what is great martial arts even if it up and kicked them in the nuts.

I think the average consumer is smarter now than 10 years ago when it comes to MA. They might not all know who Cung Le is, what MMA or San Shou means. But most people have internet, TV and UFC is becoming more and more known thanks to Spike TV. Maybe they don’t know all the signs, but I don’t think people are THAT easy to fool anymore. At least not forever.

For example.

Consumer X walks into a small kwoon that has a few students, no one walks up to talk to them, just get handed a flyer and then they are told they could sit and watch a class.

Consumer X walks into MC Dojo x-press 2000. They are greeted by a sales rep in a shiny pressed uniform. He offers to give Mr. X a tour of the school. Mr. X gets a chances to see the clean and spacious locker rooms, the immaculate bathroom, the well padded floors, the nice mirrors, and all the training equipment hung neatly with care.

but that is not all, the sales rep then sits them down, using visuals aids, and explains the many different contracts, payment methods, discounts, family group prices and extra curricular activities the school does as a family.

Where do you think the average person will go despite the Mc Dojo prices?

You don’t have to be McDojo to have a nice school. When my Sifu first started, he taught out of a Karate Dojo. I remember when he finally had enough to get his own place. I was there everyday helping him renovate; tearin down walls, construction, painting. I take some pride in that. You don’t have to be McDojo to make a good impression. Like I said, the training speaks for itself. If a guy wants to learn to fight and do some nice competition, is he going to stick around a place if all the pictures are kids forms comp? Its not THAT hard to tell McDojo. Internet makes it easy to check out a school before you join.

Usually, when someone enters a martial arts club they have little to no background or understanding of what MA is or how a school should look. They usually sign up for classes depending on how convincing the sales rep is, on word/advice of a friend of family member already training in the school, demeanor of the instructors, relative closeness from their home to club or finally based upon which club they can afford.

If you have choices. Most places I been its pretty much determined by location period. If you have some choices in your town then yeah. But you don’t have to be McDojo to have a nice school. And the way a school “looks” is partly determined by the area its located anyways. If your town isn’t the best neighborhood, its probably not going to look like Bally Fitness. And the people in that neighborhood probably aren’t going to care (as much), cuz you know, its just their neighborhood.

We, well most of us, are fanatics when it comes to martial arts. we will go visit a school several times and chat up the teachers. We will view a beginners class and ask if we could view or sit in on an advance class. We will look people up on the internet. Ask our martial arts buddies about the school we are researching.

(SoCo KungFu and I don’t mean to imply that you are this type of person. I am just generalizing as to my many years or minutes of playing house )

I’m a big boy, my feelings aren’t hurt so easy:p

People like us can either be a boon to a school or a pariah. We become a pariah when we become so close to our teachers that we forget that they are running a business. They think it is ok to pay tuition dues late. Since our teacher considers us family he lets it slide. Sometimes these people, the pariah, starts a tab at the school for drinks, snacks , shakes and the like and have to be chased down weeks later to pay the tab.

These are the same people who come with the imaginary notion the a "traditional teacher’ taught for the love of the art and shouldn’t be in it for the “money.”

When you have a student like this my advice is to cut and burn him. This person will contaminate your school and bring down moral. All martial clubs claim to teach discipline and IMO fiscal discipline has to be taught. You don’t have money for this months tuition… fine you have 5 days plus a late fee, if that is not ok, come back when you have the funds and you will be allowed to continue training.

Man you are too easy on em. Sifu expects months tuition on the first class of the month. You don’t step on the floor til he hands you the receipt. You don’t pay you go home until you can :smiley: And I agree I’ve seen those types before and it never ends in a good way. And just leads to more frustration to the Sifu.

If you do not have money aerobics class, health club, or for your civil war reenactment camp, they you are not allowed to participate. but then again I am a cold hearted ******* what do I know :slight_smile:
Nah I know what you’re sayin and I agree. Its a business and you got to eat. Its a tough business. I agree with you and the others here on a lot of points. I’ve just seen how a contract can go bad. And I don’t think consumers are so clueless anymore. They might not be experts. But you know…times are tight. A lot of people got to be a lot more careful with their money. Gas sucks, which makes it that much harder for a school in a bad location. Contracts are just one more thing that will eat at the back of the head to a possible new recruit. And I don’t think its just about the money. I just think its one of those things that contracts in a sense, people feel like they are letting go of some of their control in a situation when they have to sign a contract. People don’t like to be out of control, esp. when their money is involved.
[/QUOTE]

Honestly I don’t disagree with you. I think maybe my idea of McDojo might be a bit different than yours. I don’t instantly think a school is McDojo if its got a nice shower and a clean floor and wants payment up front. I think its McDojo if the content is catered to pumping out as many “blackbelts” as possible. If the teacher is shy to teach adults because he can’t back up his training functionally. Things like that, and its not that hard to see if you just look, experienced or not. I just think with contracts, you have to be careful. If there is some of probation period with an opt out clause or something then it wouldn’t be bad. And I think Oso’s training will carry its weight with both the forms guys and fighters alike now that I’ve seen his format. Now that I’ve read more of his posts I think he’ll be alright. I probably shouldn’t have put in my thoughts since it really doesn’t help the thread. And if it doesn’t work out can always go back to the previous method. I think at this point its better if I just check out of the thread. Business makes my head hurt anyways :smiley: Its interesting to read you guys though, I learned some things. I just wish Oso the best with the new program. I’m sure it will be all good

23

I’ve just seen how a contract can go bad. And I don’t think consumers are so clueless anymore.

Yeah, lol sell the contract that is left for 75% of what it is worth to a agency the buys out delinquent accounts and let them deal with it.

I think its McDojo if the content is catered to pumping out as many “blackbelts” as possible

I agree!

I just think with contracts, you have to be careful. If there is some of probation period with an opt out clause or something then it wouldn’t be bad.
most contracts have a three day clause to cancel and also can be fought if the provider has not met the promised services. But if you sign a contract and don’t continue because you don’t feel like going, got bored, or whatever does not mean you shouldn’t complete your side of the agreement.

If you go to college and then all of a sudden you drop out of have a certain time frame to get back your money at percentages. You paid the money up front but cost will be deducted from time you spent in class. You do not hear anyone saying “Oh I got bored and school isn’t for me so I want all my money back.”

If I hire a cleaning service at a term of 6 months but at the third month I decide that i don’t want my place cleaned anymore, I still owe that cleaning service the cash for what I promised to pay them for.

The school contract is no different. I offer to charge you less, give you discounts, or whatever is included in the contract only if you agree to sign on for a full year.
You weigh your options and make your decision and you should abide by it. I guarantee if the teacher closed shop the next day and left town you would try your hardest to get back the initial payment for service not rendered.

I probably shouldn’t have put in my thoughts since it really doesn’t help the thread. And if it doesn’t work out can always go back to the previous method. I think at this point its better if I just check out of the thread.

Dude, it makes for a great debate and your points were just as valid as mine. You have your experiences and I have mine and that is what shapes our perceptions about experiences. I am sure Oso will be fine and fine some kind of middle ground from this discussion.

24

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;775741]An option: as a student, it’s sometimes hard to find locations of schools. If you have your own website, that’s good. But you need a way to get to your website. Here, in Atlanta, there’s something called the Atlanta Martial Arts Directory which lists schools from all different styles, CMA, JMA, IMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, etc. It’s very easy, and the directory links to the websites of the schools. You might want to find out if there is one for your city, or if you could set one up. I know if I type in “Atlanta Martial Arts” in Google, I get that directory, and it makes everything so easy.[/QUOTE]

i do have my own website and my school name is “Asheville Martial Arts” so I get found by web searchers…I get a good number of hits every day.

great discussion guys, thanks…i’m hella tired and to top it all off, I got hit in the legs with an errant firework which preceeded to blow up right there…it was green.

gonna go wipe the soot and burnt hair off and go to bed.

25

Just talking about me personally, I would not sticking around if my school transitioned over to contracts. I don’t like the feeling of “obligation” I’m a grown man. I should be able to make choices.

Now on the other hand, I have been an instructor and know how the cycle goes in owning a MA school.

I think a happy medium can be attained by having both contracts and monthly. Just charged higher for the monthly people. Call it a processing cost (your time in keeping the books and chasing them down for a check/cash)

There is a school here in Dallas run by Master Lee and teaches Myjong Lawhorn. Probably a pretty good CMA school. But given that I am working as a consultant and can be assigned to jobs out of state for long periods of time, I could not go to this school. Given that I am older, I will probably have to take time off for injuries. There are also times where workload does not permit me to go to class. So in a contract situation, I am paying for nothing. Not very good deal for the student, is it? Specially more evident if you are in financial services field like I am. :wink: I am always looking for value, dollar cost avg. etc.

26

[QUOTE=TenTigers;775669]Oso, not sure where you live, but I have alot of people that commute to work in the city. They can’t do a 9-5 with an hour and a half commute and make a 630 class, so I bumped it up to 7:15. You may want to try that.

IME, I’ve never had a student that truly wanted to train later than 8. There have been several times I’ve considered changing class times and polled my students.

I use a billing service-shop around for the best prices. I chose Member Solutions, as their price was low, and they offered free consulting and support. And they did not push their own agendas.

I’ll take a look at them. A buddy of mine uses affiliated.com with good, cheap success.

I try to use direct deposit as much as possible. At first, I was shy to ask, as I felt it was an intrusion of their privacy-you know, having access to their acct or credit card. I eventually woke up and learned that this is the way most people actually prefer to do business. PLUS-it takes you out of the equation as a seller.You do not handle the finances and you keep your teacher/student rleationship.
TT[/QUOTE]

that’s the other issue I want to get out of. Had to have an awkward conversation with a parent the other day who acknowledged that she was late and told me she’d get ‘around to it’… it’s not a financial issue for the family, I work with those…she just hadn’t ‘gotten around to it’.

27

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;775727][QUOTE=Notintheface;775647]
Anyways, Oso I understand you gotta do what you gotta do to pay the rent. And I think your training will speak for itself in regards to your current students. The ones that are you core will probably stay regardless…maybe sceptic at first but when they see that for them its not much a change since they are showing up anyways, I think they will fall in and support the kwoon. And the ones that might leave are probably the drifters that would probably have found another reason to leave anyways.

that’s true

As to your ad problems. Park demos are cool. I think because people there are lounging and have the time to drift their attention to you or they are there running or working out anyways so they might be more receptive. We used to do mall demos but still it didn’t really bring in much. When we tried flyers, coupons etc. We tallied up once and for like every 300 or so flyers/coupons that we’d put out, we’d get 1 prospective return (by that I mean someone calling or walking in to at least talk, that didn’t mean they’d sign up). It was just inneficient. Are you using things like yellowpages.com or yellowbook and stuff like that? I know my current sifu and the BJJ gym I am trying to get to now I found both in yellowpages.com

I’ve just missed the opportunity to get in both the ‘yellow’ books. not enough money, never has been.

Also do you have a school website?

www.ashevillemartialarts.com

If you can’t front the cost to print a crap ton of flyers. Try something cheap like make a big sign and bring it when you do the park demos. Have your school info on it too. Then put a printable coupon or something on the website. Granted it might not be as good as a hand out right there on spot. But if they were really interested enough then I don’t see it such a stretch that they’d go home and check you out online. And I agree with Notintheface. Def at least have someone around to act as PR rep. Even if you can’t hand out stuff, someone to greet passerby’s and such. A good friendly face to make the first contact with those interested.

we’ve done park workouts in the past and handed out flyers…but, in a two hour time frame we’ve never had more than a handful of people stop long enough to talk to. and, we’ve never had a single follow up off of them.

Well, best to you. PL has a lot to offer as a system and I hope you do well. I used to admire you guys cuz in the crappy FL tournies, they were some of the only guys really trying to do the mantis in the San Shou floor. Sometimes it didn’t always work so well but they were there testing their kung fu and you got to respect that.[/QUOTE]

:slight_smile: I think you’re still getting the PL’s mixed up. There are a lot of Wah Lum people in Pong Lai (K. Brazier, yu shan & 18elders here used to train WL) :slight_smile:

28

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775803]
Dude, it makes for a great debate and your points were just as valid as mine. You have your experiences and I have mine and that is what shapes our perceptions about experiences. I am sure Oso will be fine and fine some kind of middle ground from this discussion.[/QUOTE]

Yea, great discussion/debate…thanks to all for their input. Sorry to start this and sorta bail but I start moving (my household) tonight after class and won’t have internet at home till the 20th.

I have indeed picked up some angles to think about and much food for thought.

thanks again, Matt

29

Xcakid

Probably a pretty good CMA school. But given that I am working as a consultant and can be assigned to jobs out of state for long periods of time, I could not go to this school. Given that I am older, I will probably have to take time off for injuries. There are also times where workload does not permit me to go to class. So in a contract situation, I am paying for nothing. Not very good deal for the student, is it? Specially more evident if you are in financial services field like I am. I am always looking for value, dollar cost avg. etc.

Well, this is when you decide what kind of client you wan to attract. I’ll be honest , When I run a school I do not want clients who waffle. If they start on. “Why don’t you have a month to month non-contract.” I already know that they will not be all that long. They will leave for extended periods of time and come back months later to talk and say " I am so coming back soon watch." I’s much rather lose those people all together. They are not worth the headache. It has nothing to do with being nice or mean, it is just business.

If you want to deal with those kind of people. Then I suggest you have 3,6,12 month plan up front for them. Get all the money up front. If they leave and come back have a freeze option for them. If they do only 2 months out of the three month plan they still have one month left for when ever they come back.

There is a school here in Dallas run by Master Lee and teaches Myjong Lawhorn. Probably a pretty good CMA school. But given that I am working as a consultant and can be assigned to jobs out of state for long periods of time, I could not go to this school. Given that I am older, I will probably have to take time off for injuries. There are also times where workload does not permit me to go to class. So in a contract situation, I am paying for nothing. Not very good deal for the student, is it? Specially more evident if you are in financial services field like I am. I am always looking for value, dollar cost avg. etc.

No, it is not a good deal for the student and it is not designed to be that way. Plus, as a financial planner you very well know that you get what you pay for.
I suggest Oso worry more about his constant paying clients that keep the doors open and worry less about those who come and go. Those who come and go get the money out of them before they decide to wander off again.

Teaching Martial arts is not like most pay for service business. You have to stay ahead of the curve in order to stay open and make a profit. Why spend time teaching if you are only breaking even, you are stressed, your own training is being hampered, and your time is being consumed. Teaching Martial arts is a dream job for those who spent their lives enjoying their favorite pass time.

Plus xcakid, If you would have told me your situation I would have directed you towards your local YMCA. I would also have said, “So I will cater to your needs and just sit here and wait for you to come back and pay me.. I am sure my landlord will understand:rolleyes:”

30

hat’s the other issue I want to get out of. Had to have an awkward conversation with a parent the other day who acknowledged that she was late and told me she’d get ‘around to it’… it’s not a financial issue for the family, I work with those…she just hadn’t ‘gotten around to it’.

Put up a big ass sign up…

[SIZE=“5”]YOU CAN NOT STEP ON THE MAT TO TRAIN UNLESS ALL DUES ARE PAID AND CURRENT[/SIZE]

She is a grown woman and she should know better. She does not consider you a priority because there is no repercussions to not paying on time. Add a late fee and the option of not allowing the child to participate if tuition is not on time. She has to see you as more than her kids teacher/babysitter. Show her that your school is more than a hang out and make her understand that it is a business.

31

[QUOTE=Oso;775890][QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;775727]

:slight_smile: I think you’re still getting the PL’s mixed up. There are a lot of Wah Lum people in Pong Lai (K. Brazier, yu shan & 18elders here used to train WL) :)[/QUOTE]

Nah you do PL now so that’s what I consider you. I don’t know enough about your other background to consider you otherwise :slight_smile:

Put up a big ass sign up…

YOU CAN NOT STEP ON THE MAT TO TRAIN UNLESS ALL DUES ARE PAID AND CURRENT

Ha yeah, that’s just like the one at Sifu Saleem’s place. Except his has a little Elmer Fudd looking guy with a sad face cuz he’s turning out his empty pockets:p

Oso you got a nice website. I like the colors, somebody must be a fengshui expert :slight_smile:

Lots of pics are nice. When my friends come to me about a school they found the thing they always comment on is the pics. If there is a lot, it gives em that much better an impression. When there isn’t thats when they get clueless to an art and have to ask me lots of questions.

If I can comment, I’d like to see more stuff from the grappling class and adults class. Maybe if you can get an action shot or two from the adults sparring :slight_smile:

All in all real nice. They say a pics worth a thousand words but when half those words are Chinese they are just that much more valuable.

How often do you meet up with Sifu Darryl D? I haven’t seen him in a few years.

32

SoCo

Not sure if Matt knows Darryl (Orlando) very well. I think they might have met while training with Kevin Brazier.

“she hasnt gotten around to it”!? Some people show no respect, but you should not punish the kid over the idiot Mom.

I give my people up to the 15th of the month to come up with tuition, and believe it or not, I still have some tardiness.

One of my goals is to change up my gallery more often, and to put up some clips of students training. One of my students is a computer guru so I look forward to putting some stuff out there, web-site and youtube.

33

You are a kind person Yu shan. The mother would act more quickly if the child is unhappy:) PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE… hell I’ll have the child come in and stand off to the side and have the other kids point and laugh…maybe a big red letter of some kind they could wear. j/k or am I :eek:

34

One of my goals is to change up my gallery more often, and to put up some clips of students training. One of my students is a computer guru so I look forward to putting some stuff out there, web-site and youtube.

Invest in a good video camera, web editing software, video editing software and make a deal with the student. Instead of it being a favor make it a barter. If it is a barter the need to finish it or have it done with expedience is usually higher. IMO

35

I have stone-aged equipment that is for sure. Couple of guys in class have the state of the art stuff, I will use your advice.

You got a point about the kid pitchin` a fit, I had a good laugh about making fun of the kid, could be tempting. That God I dont have a kids class… too much drama for me, and that is just from the friggen parents.

36

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775900]Put up a big ass sign up…

[SIZE=“5”]YOU CAN NOT STEP ON THE MAT TO TRAIN UNLESS ALL DUES ARE PAID AND CURRENT[/SIZE]

there isn’t a sign but it’s in the tuition agreement and on the invoices they all get every month.

She is a grown woman and she should know better. She does not consider you a priority because there is no repercussions to not paying on time. Add a late fee

there is one: $5 if not paid on time plus $1 a day. After this past month I’ve been thinking of upping it to the same range as a credit card would, like $25.

and the option of not allowing the child to participate if tuition is not on time. She has to see you as more than her kids teacher/babysitter. Show her that your school is more than a hang out and make her understand that it is a business.
[/QUOTE]

I hear you and this is where I get hung up, at least with kids…I actually don’t have any kids that aren’t serious about the kung fu…well, there is one but anyway…and in this instance both her kids are awesome…not necessarily in ability but they both work very hard in class and are totally stoked to be doing it.

I just don’t have it in me to not let a kid come to class when they so want to but their parents are slackers.

37

[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;775919][QUOTE=Oso;775890]

Nah you do PL now so that’s what I consider you. I don’t know enough about your other background to consider you otherwise :slight_smile:

…a bit o hung gar, a bit o northern shaolin, a bit of southern shaolin, a bit o tai chi w/ some xingyi and bagua on the side…wrestling and some judo and jujitsu. :slight_smile:

Ha yeah, that’s just like the one at Sifu Saleem’s place. Except his has a little Elmer Fudd looking guy with a sad face cuz he’s turning out his empty pockets:p

Oso you got a nice website. I like the colors, somebody must be a fengshui expert :slight_smile:

she’s a great graphic designer. the mantis is a 3-D model she built from scratch.

Lots of pics are nice. When my friends come to me about a school they found the thing they always comment on is the pics. If there is a lot, it gives em that much better an impression. When there isn’t thats when they get clueless to an art and have to ask me lots of questions.

If I can comment, I’d like to see more stuff from the grappling class and adults class. Maybe if you can get an action shot or two from the adults sparring :slight_smile:

[B]the grappling class is just a month old so not much to show yet.
i’ve got some vids to post on youtube to distribute out, there’s a couple there now but I haven’t had them imbedded in the website yet

here’s a link:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=xiongfa

but, I am working on getting more vid and clips out asap. there will be a pic update in a week or two.

[/B]

All in all real nice. They say a pics worth a thousand words but when half those words are Chinese they are just that much more valuable.

How often do you meet up with Sifu Darryl D? I haven’t seen him in a few years.[/QUOTE]

I’ve just met Darryl at a seminar with K. Brazier last year, I think.

38

[QUOTE=Oso;776099]I hear you and this is where I get hung up, at least with kids…I actually don’t have any kids that aren’t serious about the kung fu…well, there is one but anyway…and in this instance both her kids are awesome…not necessarily in ability but they both work very hard in class and are totally stoked to be doing it.

I just don’t have it in me to not let a kid come to class when they so want to but their parents are slackers.[/QUOTE]

Methinks that case might be solved with a little bit of coordinated guilt-tripping of the parents. Get together with the kids and have them bring it up to their parents, coach them on some stuff about the rents’ lackadaisical attitude ruining the chance for them to learn discipline and respect etc etc. Maybe augmented by a little pressure on the parents directly in terms of just saying how it is, that it’s your business and you need to be paid to keep everything running.

39

[QUOTE=n00854180t;776107]Methinks that case might be solved with a little bit of coordinated guilt-tripping of the parents. Get together with the kids and have them bring it up to their parents, coach them on some stuff about the rents’ lackadaisical attitude ruining the chance for them to learn discipline and respect etc etc.

uh,…no! that would make me no better than the parents.

Maybe augmented by a little pressure on the parents directly in terms of just saying how it is, that it’s your business and you need to be paid to keep everything running.[/QUOTE]

that’s what i do.

40

[QUOTE=Oso;776118]

uh,…no! that would make me no better than the parents.
[/quote]
I thought you said they were slackers? That would just make you sneaky. shrugs I imagine the kids would do so without prompting if they had a good grip on how parents work. Besides, it’s not as if it would be a dishonorable motive.

that’s what i do.