Sihing sez:
In my WC our lead Man-sao is approx. 3/4 of the way out extended, with the fingers nose height, forearm/inner elbow down centerline. Most boxers do not have their lead hand that far out. So if we were to line up facing one another whose lead hand would be closer to each other’s face/nose?
The key factors for any type of martial art (boxing included!)are “body unity and relaxation” You relax and use your body mass with technique.Never use your arm alone to strike,grab or whatever.This makes you save energy and deliver power a lot better.This also help many to effectively practice their arts even at any ages,provided the body was not too much damaged in rough competitions in the “prime” period!..
I believe that most arts can be very good in effectiveness and safe for prolonged practice with some common sense.It is always a question of personal tastes.This is also a question of learning with the proper instructor for you.
Having watch a tape of Augustine Fong, didn’t he have his Man Sau hand much lower than described above? If I remember correctly his was around sternum height.
Originally posted by sihing In my WC our lead Man-sao is approx. 3/4 of the way out extended, with the fingers nose height, forearm/inner elbow down centerline. Most boxers do not have their lead hand that far out. So if we were to line up facing one another whose lead hand would be closer to each other’s face/nose? WC’s lead hand should be closer, therefore it has less distance to travel to reach its target, NOSE. Also, WC practitioners are more adapt to generating power with out a retraction of the hand, using forward body movement (just think about moving any heavy object with your body from one point to another, you wouldn’t go to the side of it and push it with your arm only, you would get down the center of it with your hands close to your center and push from there), combine this with the opponents own forward momentum and you increase the power of the punch. This example alone shows the efficient use of the body and the use of proper positioning of the practitioner in relation to the opponent and the practitioners own body structure, forcing efficient movement from the start.
in thaiboxing, we are taught both variations of the guard that you describe. Having the lead hand out further allows me to parry a strike before it is able to get too deep and also, as you stated, is closer to my opponent. There is a tradeoff however, as there is less power in your strike. as for power not dependent on retracting the hand, don’t you WANT to retract it quickly? Not doing so gives them a bridge to use to get in on you, doesn’t it? the jab is usually done in conjunction with wither a step or lunge - the whole body is behind it - it’s not an arm push.
Also, the non twisting hip/shoulder concept of WC allows us to move and attack at the same time, therefore pursuit and retreat can be done simultaneously with chain punches and with power. Boxers have a hard time chasing and attacking with their power punches because they use a twist or rotating hip/shoulder concept to generate power, this requires more time to set up and is less efficient than the WC way. And you almost never see a boxer retreat and punching at the same time.
I think it’s personal preference, not style. we are taught to retreat and punch. The this is, boxers are generally taught not to retreat. you want to control the center of the ring. If he wante to advance or circle, you cut him off, but do not retreat. sidestep, but do not retreat. when you are in close though, throwing hooks, uppercuts, etc and want to get back out to a longer range, retreat out and jab as you do so. In terms of advancing, you are correct - it’s hard to advance with a cross. you advance with jabs. When you are in range, sit into the cross.
Quote :Sevenstar
“There is a tradeoff however, as there is less power in your strike. as for power not dependent on retracting the hand, don’t you WANT to retract it quickly? Not doing so gives them a bridge to use to get in on you, doesn’t it? the jab is usually done in conjunction with wither a step or lunge - the whole body is behind it - it’s not an arm push.”
Yes there is less power in the strike, mostly though for beginners, but the amount of strikes one can administer is the same period of time is more in the WC system than most boxing fighting arts. When the jab is thrown, how does the boxer throw the other punch? Does he have to rotate his hips and shoulders? Usually they do, and when this happens you cannot punch as fast and move as well with as many punch as the WC practitioner can, because we are more square to the opponent, but not totally square. The punch is not an arm punch as the whole body would be moving forward behind it. As for retraction what I meant was that at the moment the opening is seen I would not retract my arm to punch, but launch it from where it is(the 1" punch), then retract is very quickily so the chain punch can be applied, anywhere from 6 to 9 in one second. If contact is made with the opponents limbs then at this stage the bridge would be interpreted for what it represents (energy, structure) and dealt with immediately, through chi-sao training. Forward intention is paramount at this stage as this makes it more difficult for the opponent to advance closer or attack with either hand.
Joy,
In my system our Man/Wu sao is static, but not like a statue static. I’ve seen some of Sift Fong’s video’s and I’ve always thought his guard was too low, but this is just an personal opinion and taken from my own training and experience, he’s free to do whatever he likes. In our guard, once the positioning with the opponent is perfectly aligned (opponents foot and knee down center of side neutral stance, guard pointed down center of persons body dividing it in half), the opponent can throw any punch towards the upper gate and it will be defended with very little movement of the limbs (this is hard to describe in written form). Now perfect alignment is not always guaranteed yes, but the closer to perfect structure and defense it is the better it will be when things are not perfect, that is even if you get to have a guard up in the first place.
Originally posted by sihing When the jab is thrown, how does the boxer throw the other punch? Does he have to rotate his hips and shoulders?
depends on what is thrown next. if it is another jab, then no. jabs can come in rapid succession. If it is a hook off the lead hand, yes, there will be some hip turn. If the next blow is a cross, then yes, there will be hip turn. The hip turn always leaves you in position to follow up with then next strike however.
As for retraction what I meant was that at the moment the opening is seen I would not retract my arm to punch, but launch it from where it is(the 1" punch), then retract is very quickily
boxing is the same way. to wind up is telegraphic and is slower.
Originally posted by SevenStar are you saying you don’t think this also applies to boxing?
The exact opposite
Boxing has all these concepts and in my mind often refined to a simpler more functional level battle tested if you will
But it is based more on distance and footwork since there is limits to the contact area and target area , trust me I fear a good boxer way more then any traditionally trained wing chun person
I still use boxers and kick boxers [Thai as well ] as a measuring stick when I spar and train , and I still keep my boxing ,Thai ,and savate tools very sharp .
Joy,
In my system our Man/Wu sao is static, but not like a statue static. I’ve seen some of Sift Fong’s video’s and I’ve always thought his guard was too low, but this is just an personal opinion and taken from my own training and experience, he’s free to do whatever he likes.
James- his videos now over 20 years old are a fraction of what he actually does. Sometimes for development you can teach a posture and then in another context the positions can be different. BTW- I did not learn from videos. Also-BTW I dont speak for him. On his site there is a question and answer section that can clarify things sometimes…if the questions are clear enough.
But in actual applications- the dynamics of applying man sao and bai jong can be quite different.
When the front hand is way out in the front- as in some systems- the lead hand punch could be weaker
the tai chi people argue that their style is superior based on the fact that at old age you can still practise it and improve in it (although you can’t fight with it so you only improve health with it).
Seriously one guy was argueing with me on emptyflower once (I think it was Bai he or maybe malak) that IMA is superior to boxing because boxers are young and get washed up by a young age while in old age ima people still practise, feel healthy, and can improve. He also mentioned guys like Vanderlei SIlva and other pros switching to tai chi because their styles wont cut it anymore.
“IMA is superior to boxing because boxers are young and get washed up by a young age while in old age ima people still practise, feel healthy, and can improve.”
Apples and oranges, I think. Not many pro boxers last into their forties, but then again as someone mentioned above plenty of older men and women do boxing training without the sparring, or with light sparring, for aerobic fitness. lot of older guys/gals at my local gym.
If taiji had a professional circuit with people who were trying to strike and push other for real, I’m pretty sure you’d find that was a young person’s game too.
There is a guy on a number of MMA forums called Shooter who claims to fight MMA with his entire fighting style based at some level, on taiji. This guy seems to know what he’s talking about and I respect him, but even so, I doubt he’ll be jumping in the ring at 60, much more likely to be doing the form and light push hands with the other grandparents.
I would be interesting to see how well your typical taiji guy in his 60’s/70’s fared against an ex pro boxer, even ex am, of equivalent age if they started fighting in the surgical supply store over the last Zimmer frame - I think my money would still be on the ex boxer. Same with the boxer vs an old WC guy, unless the WC guy had actually fought a few times.
“He also mentioned guys like Vanderlei SIlva and other pros switching to tai chi because their styles wont cut it anymore.”
First I’ve heard of it, and can find nothing linking Vanderlei and taiji on Google. And since when did "The Axe Murderer’"s style stop cutting it? Not recently. Sounds most unlikely.
I realise you’re quoting what others said, not necessarily agreeing with them.
Originally posted by sihing This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse…
James
Sorry I’m a bit slow on the uptake…
I’m a beginner at wing chun and I’d like to believe this BUT:
how do you measure getting better at Wing Chun?
-Chi sao/forms/drills/sparring in house
-Competition
-Street encounters?
To test if your wing chun is better than another’s tai chi - do you fight in the ring? If not how? Is this statement based on anything that can be measured?
Just questions I have myself about the way Wing Chun is promoted
There is a guy on a number of MMA forums called Shooter who claims to fight MMA with his entire fighting style based at some level, on taiji. This guy seems to know what he’s talking about and I respect him, but even so, I doubt he’ll be jumping in the ring at 60, much more likely to be doing the form and light push hands with the other grandparents.
he posts here too but Ive never seen any of his fight clips and I think he only fought amateur? Also he crosstraines in some grappling or claims to have invented it. And he is one of the evry few tai chi guys who actually spar.
Good questions. To me, how do I measure the Wing Chun getting better with time, well it is not really about measuring it and having people judge you by it, at least that is what I think, but in my own personal experience I have found that my Wing Chun has improved over time and I am not training as much as I used to. My Sifu and Sihings are also examples of this phenomenon. Sifu always said that after a time in the art, you can just imagine and think about it and that is practicing(they say that the mind cannot recognize the difference between something vividly imagined and something that really happened). I remember watching demo’s of Sifu during the early 90’s and onward, his movement kept on getting better and better, each one was done with greater ease of technique and concept, and I asked if he was training allot and he said no, not at that time due to his teaching schedule. For me it is just a feeling within that one has when they become more and more comfortable with the art, and also once in a while someone else says something nice about your skills, lol.
Yes, to test your Wing Chun against someone else’s Tai Chi you would have to step into the ring per say, but once again this is not the point. I for one do not think everyday about myself constantly improving in the art or having to test it, it’s something that just comes up once in a while when you decide to notice it.
you wouldn’t have to step into the ring. You could do it in a private (or public) challenge match with no rules. You could also bust into their school and insult them thus provoking a challenge.
Originally posted by Enforcer- he posts here too but Ive never seen any of his fight clips and I think he only fought amateur? Also he crosstraines in some grappling or claims to have invented it. And he is one of the evry few tai chi guys who actually spar.
he works his taiji principles on the ground. So what if he’s only fought amateur? On what level have the taiji guys you’re referring to fought? Even at amateur level, he can’t compete at an old age. consequently, his career would be “washed up”. would he then have to stop training?
for some of us, training is as much a habit as brushing our teeth, and I’ve only been doing it for 20 + yrs , I can’t imagine how hard that habit would be to break after 50 or 60 or 70 yrs, but I imagine, that training in whatever capacity you can manage , is how some ppl understand life and understand their day to play out.
I was watching a documentary on Deng Xiao Ping ( ex - chinese - chairman ) a few weeks back, and his thing was playing cards. He did it practicaly until the day he died, and seemed to think that as long as he was doing this, it was proof his mind was still working. I guess training is much like that and even now, no matter how bad something gets, if I can train , even a little , my body is working and I’m capable of continuing. Age would eccaberate that I assume and I look forward to being the wrinkliest gal in the gym myself
