Training in the past, no one knows

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I was talking with someone in another thread about how and what people at the original Jingwu Association trained in. My answer was “nobody knows what daily training was like”.

When people talk about Chinese martial arts of the past the general presumption is that “everyone trained hard, busted ass, just like in a Shaw Brothers movie”.

But in fact nobody knows what daily training was like in the past in China. The earliest we really have any idea about would be the early 1960s!! No fooling, prior to the 1960s there are no real records that provide any detail about how people actually trained. Note the emphasis there; how they “actually” trained, not how the various manuals said they “should” train.

Based on what few records we have of the various Qing military groups—the training may well have been quite lazy and half assed. Truth be told I have long suspected that Chinese martial arts training in the past–be it the “recent past” of the Qing dynasty/Republican Period, or the more distant past of the Ming—may not have been very demanding. I have no proof of that, it is just my suspicion, guess or gut feeling.

It is an interesting question to ponder.

take care,
Brian

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IF their training was like those done in other countries at the time, by comparable people, it probably was more of a “passtime” like it is now.
Outside of professionals and warrior castes, the only people doing MA would a citizen militia, which means on their free time, what very limited they had, or people doing it for “health reasons” and that was somethign that cam muck later on, or they were people that WANTED or HAD to be MA, family member perhaps.
If people had NO jobs, they would have to be rich and the fact is, most rich people had better things to do than learn a “lower class hobby”.
I would think that, outside of professional warriors/soldiers, those that took MA probably did what we all still do-
Work a full time job and train when we can.

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Brian,
The thought had occurred to me that one possible way to gauge how at least some of the old training was done could be to examine how the very early practitioners of Okinawan karate trained. I had read that prior to the art being brought to mainland Japan, the training in Okinawa was far less formal or structured. Often people went to train whenever they could, and the ‘dojo’ was generally a courtyard with a dirt ‘floor’ or wherever they cold train. It seemed more geared to the individual as opposed to the larger group.

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[QUOTE=Jimbo;1025698]Brian,
The thought had occurred to me that one possible way to gauge how at least some of the old training was done could be to examine how the very early practitioners of Okinawan karate trained. I had read that prior to the art being brought to mainland Japan, the training in Okinawa was far less formal or structured. Often people went to train whenever they could, and the ‘dojo’ was generally a courtyard with a dirt ‘floor’ or wherever they cold train. It seemed more geared to the individual as opposed to the larger group.[/QUOTE]

Quite correct, daily practice was virtually impossible, though I am sure many tried to train daily.
The vast majority did NOT have the leisure time, unless it was their profession or they were family they would NOT get daily attention from the teacher.

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It doesn’t help that people off the street expect their instructor to be a “ninja master first class” and have had killed 20 people with his bare hands before even considering attending their school.

It’s sad, because it promotes ridiculous overpromoting and downright deception in order to stand a chance at being competitive.

The truth is, for most people coming off the streets, a respectable martial arts instructor doesn’t have to be that super shadow ninja they expect and plan to brag about learning from (the overpromotion works both ways).

So now, like back then, the market for martial arts, an unnecessary hobby that can be expensive during a time of recession, goes to the one who can shamelessly promote himself the best.

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I don’t have the answers…

…but I think the previous posters have the right idea.

We can only do what we have the ability to do. I have to support my family, so I work. I go to class twice a weak and practice techniques and forms when I have the spare time.

In class we’ll go full out some days, and slow others. When we train two person techniques, I hate the pace, but I know I’m learning.

When we spar, sometimes your opponent fights hard, sometimes they act like they don’t want to fight.

We can only hope for or search out good teachers, try as hard as we can, whenever we can. I’d say it was the same 100 years ago.

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[QUOTE=Drake;1025703]It doesn’t help that people off the street expect their instructor to be a “ninja master first class” and have had killed 20 people with his bare hands before even considering attending their school.

It’s sad, because it promotes ridiculous overpromoting and downright deception in order to stand a chance at being competitive.

The truth is, for most people coming off the streets, a respectable martial arts instructor doesn’t have to be that super shadow ninja they expect and plan to brag about learning from (the overpromotion works both ways).

So now, like back then, the market for martial arts, an unnecessary hobby that can be expensive during a time of recession, goes to the one who can shamelessly promote himself the best.[/QUOTE]

People who believe this, or pretend that they are a super shadow master who has killed 20 people, have no business being in the martial arts to begin with.

I never believed a lot of these stories either. Like all good fairy tales, they are designed for a moral guidance and something to aim for or to appeal to, but not necessarily true.

I remember reading one story last night of one master who could kill a fly with a spear that was resting on a paper door without damaging the door. Again, fairy tales, something to appeal to.

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Boxing gave me one of the bets perspectives I could have in the MA, I never expected my boxing coach to be able to kick the ass of the fighters he trained, I just expected him to be able to make me a better fighter, period.

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I think we can stratch back a little further than 1960, since we had access to people like Chan Tai San, Chang Dung Sheng, Lum Jo, etc…

But of course the general idea of the original post stands, we don’t know much and our sneaking suspicians are that for most it wasn’t very hard… in fact that is what the “old timers” like those named above will tell you!

The traditional way was the sifu showed you, then walked away, it was up to you. Human nature being what it was, many didn’t follow up.

Some even thougt that once they had learned the technique, they would of course be able to use it! Even without training it

Thank g’d that mentality isn’t around today :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=brianlkennedy;1025689]".

But in fact nobody knows what daily training was like in the past in China. [/QUOTE]

hey man if u write so many books, how can u not know what training was like in the past. dont u do research

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1025725]I think we can stratch back a little further than 1960, since we had access to people like Chan Tai San, Chang Dung Sheng, Lum Jo, etc…

But of course the general idea of the original post stands, we don’t know much and our sneaking suspicians are that for most it wasn’t very hard… in fact that is what the “old timers” like those named above will tell you!

The traditional way was the sifu showed you, then walked away, it was up to you. Human nature being what it was, many didn’t follow up.

Some even thougt that once they had learned the technique, they would of course be able to use it! Even without training it

Thank g’d that mentality isn’t around today :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Actually, its funny how deep rooted things can be.
Because of the current, now over, World cup, A friend of mine got to do a workout with the local Toronto FC, the professional soccer time in Toronto, and asked me to join him.
I used to play in Portugal, as a junior, for a 1st division team and was pretty good, though not the best on my team.
Now, my incredible out of shapness aside, I did really well that the coach and a few players asked what time I play on now ( assuming I still played in a club team), when I said this was the first time I kicked a ball in years and the first time since 86 that I trained with a high caliber team, they didn’t believe me.
It took a bit to get the rust out, but it all came back while I played.

So, while constant training is obviously quite important to maintain a high level of skill ( well duh !!), we never truly forget that skill, though it does get rusty.

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I suspect people have not changed that much. There were the radical enthusiests, the lazy slackers, and all those in between.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1025729]Actually, its funny how deep rooted things can be.
Because of the current, now over, World cup, A friend of mine got to do a workout with the local Toronto FC, the professional soccer time in Toronto, and asked me to join him.
I used to play in Portugal, as a junior, for a 1st division team and was pretty good, though not the best on my team.
Now, my incredible out of shapness aside, I did really well that the coach and a few players asked what time I play on now ( assuming I still played in a club team), when I said this was the first time I kicked a ball in years and the first time since 86 that I trained with a high caliber team, they didn’t believe me.
It took a bit to get the rust out, but it all came back while I played.

So, while constant training is obviously quite important to maintain a high level of skill ( well duh !!), we never truly forget that skill, though it does get rusty.[/QUOTE]

Your post is hitting on a different aspect. Once you HAVE trained hard the skill is there. Heck, CTS chain smoked, drank, had diabetis and didn’t train frequently but he could KILL YOU. He had done the hard training in his younger days

Chang Dung Sheng said he trained like an animal when he was young, BUT he noted he was the only one who did! His classmates were lazy he said

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in the past people get conscripted by the army and train kung fu. you train hard because the army pays u monies and beat u with a stick if u dont.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1025731]Your post is hitting on a different aspect. Once you HAVE trained hard the skill is there. Heck, CTS chain smoked, drank, had diabetis and didn’t train frequently but he could KILL YOU. He had done the hard training in his younger days

Chang Dung Sheng said he trained like an animal when he was young, BUT he noted he was the only one who did! His classmates were lazy he said[/QUOTE]

I know, that’s why I didn’t disagree and just add a view point.
I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !!

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1025733]

I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !![/QUOTE]

based upon my experiences including knowing many skilled practicioners, I’d say you choked out the correct on that one…

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I’m sure that both schools and students are really no different than they are now. There were a few teachers who knew how to fight and passed on those skills to a few as well. Then you had people who learned a little bit and then opened their own schools and passed on incomplete knowledge to their students etc.

The McDojo has been around since MA has been taught to the public.

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I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !!

more truth in that than most see. Coming up through MA’s younger doing the hard end, beatings, punishment, conditioning, dislocated this and that, etc…etc… stuff that your body absorbs and then later punishes you for. yeah… i can assimilate with that.

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We had a thread awhile back where we listed all the injuries we incurred from the years of training. Many of us with more than 30 yrs had pages.
Someone said,(probably MK)
“You would’ve been better off just getting your azz kicked!”

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1025917]We had a thread awhile back where we listed all the injuries we incurred from the years of training. Many of us with more than 30 yrs had pages.
Someone said,(probably MK)
“You would’ve been better off just getting your azz kicked!”[/QUOTE]

LOL. That was me!