Training in different styles and schools

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

Shaolin - Authentic - Martial arts

Hey dave! I didnt know you posted here I thought u just looked into these from time to time! well Im responding now, I just finished my work so time to respond..

Ill first address shaolin gong fu as being a means of attaining enlightenment

Im going to address three things in this post jing,chi and shen which mean jing(essence) chi(energy) shen(spirit)

you say that the shaolin monks studied the buddhist sutras to attain enlightenment and they practiced gong fu for self defense in their travels, this is partially right and I am stating this as fact; heres my reasons.

why would a shaolin monk practice gong fu in order to attain enlightenment when so many other buddhist sects do not? it is because zen buddhisim and meditation is incorporated into their gong fu and chi kung training.

in meditation you have to be completely relaxed, everyone who meditates knows this. Thus if you are not physically, emotionally,mentally and spiritually fit you are unlikely to gain the most from your journey to a zen awakenining

Examples ;
if one is not physically fit, one can hardly fight;if one is not emotionally stable, one cannot apply one’s combat skills; if one is not mentally fresh, one cannot make split-second decisions.(quoted from wong kiew kit)

if our bodies are weak we also have a low energy level(ie blockage of energy meridians etc) our chi is not harmonious and thus we are unable to perform as well in physical activities as others might(ie people who train in kung fu, chi kung, taijijuan)

Now this answers many questions why people would say, how is shaolin kung fu a complete system? well because through training you will become physically fit, mentally fresh, emotionally stable, and you will also cultivate your spirtuality. Since Chi kung is incorporated in many if not all authentic gong fu styles, meditation is also key to aspireing to higher levels of skill. as believed in buddhisim the only way to reach enlightenment is to meditate, so is the case with many other religions though it might appear in different forms such as prayer in christianity.

you asked me how shaolin gong fu leads to enlightenment, and this should answer your questions, through dedicated training you will developed a healthy body, emotional stability, through meditation and chi kung you will developed mental freshness and in a period of time enlightenment. dont take this lightly though it sounds simple(because it is) but it takes much training to reach enlightenment, even for the greatest masters to live such as bodhidarma, hui neng etc it took them up to 9+ years! and all of which i mentioned above is incorporated into shaolin gong fu.

“shaolin kung fu has the most extensive history than any other martial art in the world.”

key word is EXTENSIVE, not oldest like you tried pointing out as reffering to wrestling(maybe you were reffering to the greeks?) but extensive meaning many different levels of training, technique along with history and developement

and yes kung fu is this, it has the most extensive training in weapons, open hand forms, kicks, 1 on 1, 2 on 1, 3 on 1 ++, groundfighting, grappling, joint locks-pressure point techniques,sweeps,throws etc.. and most authentic gong fu contains chi kung training which is to say internal energy or for some its external training ie iron palm, iron jacket or wooden dummys-wall bags etc but in the end we all know that both lead to basically the same results, but sometimes lacking a few details

also, gong fu is one of the oldest martial arts in the world, because china is an ancient civilization, and becuase martial art techniques have been dated back so far as to have been scribed on cave walls, turtle shells, and other common writing surfaces.

also, in refference to other buddhist sects not practiecing the same exercises taught by bodhidarma, some of course do practice exercises like the 8 brockades or wild goose chi kung like dave practices..which i think is taoist but im not sure..

so thats that..sorry for making some of you feel stupid or whatever but that wasnt my intent when i wrote the comparison to people who i didnt think knew anything about gong fu, from their answers in these posts.

42

OK… I’ve got a simple question because obviously the past 22 years of training have been all wrong…

Who’s your sifu? What is this person’s name that has so enlightened you?

I just gotta know.

43

enlightenment

yea sean i dont ever recall saying i was enlightened

and if you do train in shaolin gong fu(which is to say you train at henan province,NYC,London etc and you havent gained ANY of the atributes etc i mentioned) then yea you have been training all wrong for the past 22 years!

im not saying that if you havent been enlightened that you arent doing your gong fu right..becuase not all authentic kung fu teaches one to reach enlightenment, only shaolin and some other gong fu systems

and the rest of your questions answer is in my profile..hehehe

44

maestro1700–

Other than the various digs at different people, NOW we’re starting to get somewhere–before I comment on anything else though, I’d like to point something out. You wrote:

shaolin kung fu has the most extensive history than any other martial art in the world,

To me, this means that you are saying that Shaolin Kung Fu has the most extensive (oldest/rich etc) history in the world.

Now, if you were saying it’s the oldest, my standard response is to post some blather about Kalari–an Indian Martial art that may very well predate Shaolin KF.

If you are arguing that it has the richest history, this is a statement for which you might make a case, but hardly come to something conclusive about–several other arts unrelated to Shaolin can claim a rich and varied history.

The only other thing I’d like to comment on is the enlightenment issue: Nobody here–especially Ap, is claiming that enlightenment is not A purpose of Shaolin KF. However, you quite clearly stated that the MAIN purpose (ie, ultimate aim) of Shaolin KF.

And therein is the argument (from a rhetorical perspective–not from a let’s all yell at each other perspective).

Ap’s point, and mine is that the Shaolin Monks did things besides Kung Fu to attain enlightenment. This would suggest that the ultimate aim of the Shaolin MONKS was to attain enlightenment, and that Shaolin Kung Fu was one way to help that along.

However, it does not automatically follow that the ultimate aim of practicing Shaolin Kung Fu is to acheive enlightenment.

An example–Monks did daily chores, including such things as sweeping the floors and cooking–laboring at chores was part of their training on the path to enlightenment. Does that mean that the ultimate aim of laboring at chores is to acheive enlightenment?

I would argue that this may not be the case–while laboring at chores was thought to benefit the monks spiritually (as well as serving a practical purpose), the ultimate aim of the chores themselves was not enlightenment.

In much the same way, practicing Shaolin Kung Fu was thought to benefit the monks spiritually, and served the practical purpose of learning to fight. However, the ultimate aim of Shaolin Kung Fu itself may not be enlightenment.

Again–can it help the seeker? Perhaps…maybe even an unqualified yes! However, is that the ultimate aim? This is debatable–the fact that the monks did things besides Shaolin KF in their training is indicative that the aim of the Kung Fu training was not, in and of itself, enlightenment.

45

OH MY BUDDHA!
Ok ok..I won’t train in two styles anymore…

I like it though…it has allowed me to train not only physically, but spiritually as well. It’s an overall good feeling.

So I will continue until I decide I don’t want to. I like both. Life is short. I live in a city, and not in a temple where one trains all day and meditates.
I’m fufilled…almost. I prefer yet another style that is not offered here. But I WON’T GO DOWN THAT PATH. So I’m fufilled enough.

Be nice to each other gentlemen. The world is going to **** and it’s up to us to keep antagonism to a minimum. It’s our duty.

peace.

46

good points

merry, you make some good points..but the point i was making basically was that;

shaolin kung fu served many purposes but the end being, attaining enlightenment

the fact that you related sweeping a floor as a chore, that ultimately helped the young monks in their spiritual cultivation is simple, sweeping the floor much like other mundane chores was probably used to make the disciple develope a one pointed mind, which is the primary training technique in zen buddhisim. and yea it also kept the monastery clean :wink:

you are also right in say that shaolin kung fu was A way of achieving enlightenment..but at its highest level shaolin kung fu focuses on spiritual cultivation

there of course are many ways to reach enlightenment(which the buddha,and his disciples realised suited peoples different needs) such as..koans, or beatings, shouting etc found in zen buddhisim.

and yea it is nice to have a convo without all the bs that people(me included) get involved in on forums

47

Re: enlightenment

Originally posted by Maestro1700
yea sean i dont ever recall saying i was enlightened

Yeah & I never said you were enlightened. I said … What is this person’s name that has so enlightened you?.. i.e. opened your eyes to these ideas?

What’s the name? I’m still waiting for that.

Originally posted by Maestro1700

and if you do train in shaolin gong fu(which is to say you train at henan province,NYC,London etc and you havent gained ANY of the atributes etc i mentioned) then yea you have been training all wrong for the past 22 years!

I just picked up Shaolin in the past couple of years. Taiji to boot as well. Guess what… I have been to Shaolin. Guess what… was part of a sit down q&a with Shi Yong Xin. Guess what… he never said Shaolin wushu helped to reach enlightenment. He spoke of Ch’an working on that part. The gong fu was to keep the body healthy to help the spirit with the tenents of Ch’an reach that.

Originally posted by Maestro1700
[b]
im not saying that if you havent been enlightened that you arent doing your gong fu right..becuase not all authentic kung fu teaches one to reach enlightenment, only shaolin and some other gong fu systems

and the rest of your questions answer is in my profile..hehehe [/B]

All I want to know is who your sifu is. I want the name of the person that has told you Shaolin gongfu a physical tool in reaching enlightenment. You quoted Wong Kiew Kit at least two times at least in this thread. I’m wondering how much you’ve studied & then how much you’ve read in books.

So far, you’ve told me & one other person that I would call older brother or possibly/probably even sifu based on his years of experience & training, that we were missing something because we didn’t understand something that in your tender 17 years you have figured out or had explained to you. I wanna know who set you on that path. Just a name. That’s all.

48

endless..

sean..im 17 yea so i guess i have an excuse for getting upset sometimes and responding with a bit of anger on these forums..and personally if someone like you or others on this forum said this stuff to me in the manner and tone you have presented your arguments, id probably make you kiss the cement..but when you so called mature and “wiser” martial artists sink down to my level of maturity..which you criticise at the same time i feel real low and depressed about how many teachings and lessons can just poof in one instant..its sad really

The gong fu was to keep the body healthy to help the spirit with the tenents of Ch’an reach that.

if you didnt understand what i was talking about when i almost basically reffered to this exact same thing above than man you need to go back to kindergarten and have them read you your abc’s

no one put me on my path, i live my own life the way i want to, and im sure my views will change as i grow older

49

maestro1700,

let’s try this: what elements of your personal practice would you say are focused on achieving enlightenment? walk me through a typical practice session for you and tell me what is done for what purpose, specifically.

stuart b.

50

Pathfinder…

I have to agree with MP and the other guys about the “Shaolin GungFu and Enlightenment” thing. That doesn’t mean that I don’t understand what M-Tro and others are trying to say, but you might be using too general a term. What or where is enlightenment anyway? I don’t think that it’s a destination or a terminus, but a singular journey or process.

Enhanced self-actualization may be more on point. The past, present and future were/are destinations, with only one endpoint. The future which we can only guess at, is a place we have yet to visit. It is already there though, we just haven’t moved through space/time to reach it. I’m inclined to believe that Providence has an image or expectation of us, and all of us will fulfill that “role”, from the disadvantaged to the those with serendipity on their side.

MAs or any other physical or mental exercise, can expedite the expectations we, others and Creation has for us. I know this sounds a little esoteric. The esoteric is the glue which binds the concrete or material world. Dedicating one’s self to any endeavor helps us to understand the totality of our existence. It helps us to make sense of an entropic Universe (or Multiverse). The more we are able to do physically and mentally, the easier it is to understand a greater part of the totality.

Buddhism (Ch’an/Zen, all other schools of thought), Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Deism or whatever “template” you use, serve the same purpose. They all ask us to pattern our mental and physical world after some other person’s or “Deity’s” interpretations or experiences. Many circumstances have similarities, but most are singular. None of these blueprints for civilized behavior has all the answers. Heck, most are nothing more than places where people can meet on “common ground”. To say that the aim of traditional MAs and Shaolin Chuan Fa, in modern society, is that the practitioner reach Nirvana, already limits one’s ability to interpret his/her world for themselves.

I study Shorin (Shaolin) Ryu (Flow/Way). The Orthodox form, Matsumura Seito, is strictly an interpretation of Shaolin fighting methods passed down from one Bushi (Okinawan Samurai), to another, with a little Jigen-Ryu Kenjutsu (fighting style of the Satsuma Samurai), and a lot of Okinawa “Ti/Te” influence . My Shorinkan (different ryuha or subsystem) Sensei taught many Zen-like aspects, but refused to use Buddhism as a means to reach greater actualization. For Okinawan stylists (the purists at least), Kata/Hsing/Quan were the main tools for reaching something beyond being a common thug. I guess the Japanese noticed this too, so they began to describe karate kata as “Zen in motion”. That’s how they understood their training, but many Okinawans understand kata and karate in their own way.

In Matsumura Seito we rarely bow, speak in Japanese terms or take part in meditation (“Makuso”)! The only reflection we partake in is when we are trying to assimilate the feasibily of a tech for self-preservation. Still, I’ve grown leaps and bounds with the traditional Okinawan way to train vs. the more prevalent Japanized modern karate way that I partook in when I was a teen. The same can be said for BJJ/GJJ. “Jutsu” (Art/Science) vs. “Do” (philosophicallly structured “Way”) is the order of the day. The abstract is enhanced by one’s ability to apply concrete truths to easily perceivable situations.

Sorry for the rambling… I can hear both sides, but I agree with neither completely.

51

Omega–

Actually, I think we’re largely in agreeance–perhaps not completely from an over arching philosophical framework, but certainly w/respect to the specific purpose of Shaolin Kung Fu:

Maestro claims that it’s ultimate aim is enlightenment.

Ap, and I are both trying to make the case that while it is a tool in the toolbox to help achieve enlightenment, surely, the ultimate aim of Shaolin Kung Fu itself is not enlightenment–part and parcel of that aim, but not the true aim, in and of itself.

52

maestro: the qigong i do is for many different things, but the main aim, at least at first (for me anyway), is to be healthy… after that who knows? Certainly not me as i’ve only been training over 18 months… best not to get any high ideas of what things are for and just practise if u ask me - then you’ll see what they’re for yourself.

MP and Apoweyn - if ur interested i think there was a Shaolin Gong Fu IS Chan thread at Russbo a while ago. i’ll try and find the link if u let me know? (Doc’s renovating the site right now though).

hopefully this thread can stay civil lol (get enuff at the WC forum) :slight_smile:

david

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A farmer gets enlightenment. A businessperson gets enlightenment. A merchant gets enlightenment. A child gets enlightenment.

A sudden thud and my thoughts stop whirring. And All the thoughts make a collage. Sometimes the thoughts are pixles and they form a picture. Sometimes the picture is perfectly clear. And I understand.~

Housework, homework, farming, officework, things sometimes come together from doing. And so Shao-lin people practice their hardest with each technique (as if it’s the last thing they would ever do) (What I heard~ it’s supposed to be like). And so (needle-and-thread), the Shao-lin have practice as part of their whatever. While others are told they should or encougared to, I think that it might actually be a written rule within Shao-lin Kung-Fu.

Budhists seem to have a reverence for Life. Except for (however many) high level greedies, do you tend to think of Shao-liners as Fight pickers? Or Kill rampagers? To learn the Kung-Fu at/from this Budhist temple, people picked-up at least some of the Ch’an principles. In a World where violence is considered the problem solver, a fom of fighting that promates do the least damage and do no harm if you can, might be considered enlightened~or be related to enlightenment. And the Exercises were done to improve health to improve their meditation sessions (to allow them to endure them). Chants done while the mind was occupied with the distraction of the physically demanding, allowed for self hypnosis, deep and varying levels of meditation. Chores or forms eithe Self or Life gets looked at eventually. Realization sometimes occures.

Enlightenment needs no spokesperson. IfShao-lin Kung-Fu has lessons embedde in the movements then the form will speak forit’self when the practitioner is ready? There are ages at which we do not explain having sex to children. They are not ready or don’t Need to know that at that moment. There’s a concept of thelling them when they are ready. Supposedly enlightenmet is this way.

If the Main if not sole purpose of Shao-lin kung-Fu is enlightenment…saying it does not matter, knowing it does not matter, conviencing others is not required. If it is so, then that is enough.

54

“Buddhism (Ch’an/Zen, all other schools of thought), Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Deism or whatever ‘template’ you use, serve the same purpose. They all ask us to pattern our mental and physical world after some other person’s or ‘Deity’s’ interpretations or experiences.”

That’s not quite true. All of the religions you mention (although I’m not familiar with Deism) were founded upon and have had a continual undercurrent of mysticism. This word is used inappropriately quite often. It’s proper usage refers to a practice which permits direct experience of something one may call ineffable. The core of these religions is not a demand to pattern something after someone else’s experiences, but rather simply to have those experiences for yourself.

55

What size shoe’s do you wear?

Originally posted by Braden
[B]“Buddhism (Ch’an/Zen, all other schools of thought), Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Deism or whatever ‘template’ you use, serve the same purpose. They all ask us to pattern our mental and physical world after some other person’s or ‘Deity’s’ interpretations or experiences.”

That’s not quite true. All of the religions you mention (although I’m not familiar with Deism) were founded upon and have had a continual undercurrent of mysticism. This word is used inappropriately quite often. It’s proper usage refers to a practice which permits direct experience of something one may call ineffable. The core of these religions is not a demand to pattern something after someone else’s experiences, but rather simply to have those experiences for yourself. [/B]

Those are singular experiences the individuals had, that apply to one person (usually a man) or a small group of “devout” disciples. I can’t expect to know how you really interpret reality, let alone claim to be able to understand your life, and live your experiences in the same way. Many of the lessons of the world’s great religions mirror one another, but emulation is another thing.

For example Buddha’s enlightenment came after he was meditating in the wilderness and Lord Mara (Evil) tries to tempt, threaten, deceive him and get him to believe that the voice he was hearing and the reflection he was seeing in the pond was his own. Buddha’s enlightenment came after he reaffirmed that he was the master of his fate and destiny and no one else. No one, not even Satan, could tell him who he was or what he should do. The hardcore ascetic mystics abandoned him b/c he disavowed their extreme mystical views on materialism. He adopted moderation and now he has his own religion.

Jesus went through a similar experience with satan, the results being similar but the experiences being singular.

The point is both cats had to find themselves or reaffirm their place in the grand scheme. Mysticism in the Eastern beliefs has always been integral. In the West the mystic tradition survives with Judaism (really an Eastern belief system), but is completely lost with severely diluted Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Churches and Roman Catholic churches once had a strong Mystic tradition, but I think that almost all of that was lost after the Renaissance, and especially after the Enlightenment. Just ask any priest.

I know what you’re trying to say. I’m not attempting to coerce or even prove my point. That’s just how I see and feel it to be. One opinion out of billions. Look up Deism. It’s what most of America’s founding fathers believed in… Pax Egyptiana (everything is Egyptian after all).

56

Actually, one can be enlightened doing just about anything. And deism doesn’t cut it without first starting from the notion that GOD (meaning whatever you want that to mean) is in you.

You are God.

That’s the way it works. Especially in buddhist circles…and by the way, you are most certainly enlighted doing kung fu. It is not just to keep you in shape to be enlightened. That’s what I’ve understood in both reading and practicing my kung fu.

57

I don’t know about enlightenment, well i do intellectually but not in a experiential sense. Supposedly, enlightenment is attained by nourishing the shen with water qi right? And then the spirit can fly free, or becomes stronger than the body or whatever, then you are a Buddha. Well, for me, thats not a very realistic goal at all. What I want to get out of kung Fu is physical fitness, Confidence, self defense, health, and also a certain spiritual element as well. To clarify, I have become more centered, aware, or whatever you wish to call it. However, I want to attune my spirit better to my body. I want to be mentally more astute, emotionally more controlled, and spiritually more focused, which can all be achieved by strengthening my Yi (wisdom mind). And, in my experience, which may or may not mean much to you guys, MA has helped me to do all this. It has helped me focus when I need to study Calculus. It has helped me persevere in tragedies. It has influenced many of my life decisions. So no, in my personal definition of MA, it is not a sport, but a way of life. Having said that, MA means different things to different people. Maestro, if CMA is a vehicle of enlightenment for you, right on. If its a sport to you Brent, more power to you. My point is that we ,as the MA community, should not be concentrating on our difference of interpretation, but rejoicing in the mutual benefits of our arts. Im done. 'Scus me, Im goin to see star wars. :smiley:

Gabriel

P.S. - oh yeah..the question of 2 MA at one time? Well I take Tai Chi and Mantis and they compliment each other quite well i think. but they are after all, internal and external styles. I don’t know what you are taking, but it is ultimately up to you. Peace.