Training in different styles and schools

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Re: ohh brent…

Originally posted by Maestro1700

… blah, blah, blah …

I don’t have the time or inclination to debate this with you. Your reasoning is flawed, your experience is shallow, your facts are only about half correct and mostly misinterpreted, and you’ve obviously learned mostly from books, movies, and video games.

A few brief points though:

  1. I’ve never taught TKD, but I have studied it (20 years ago), and I have taught Kung Fu professionally since 1990.

  2. You continue to argue semantics. I don’t care what you call it, sport, pastime, sperm whale.

  3. It IS possible to master two styles simultaneously, but it depends on the styles. Some styles consist of only a few very specific techniques. It is quite possible to master two of these simultaneously provided they are not in conflict. As I mentioned before, to say that it is not possible is a declaration in ignorance of the details. To continue to argue this point underscores ignorance.

  4. It is incorrect that no one studies multiple styles of Chinese martial arts simultaneously. It is also incorrect that no on has mastered multiple styles simultaneously. Many if not most teachers, whether they realize it or not, teach bits and pieces from other styles regularly.

  5. You continue to try to educate me on the depth of Chinese martial arts. You don’t know how foolish this makes you look. I have studied martial arts for as long as I can remember, and have studied Chinese martial arts extensively. I have taught hundreds of students, and I personally train several hours every day. All of this, and I only have a fraction of my potential understanding and am humbled by my seniors who dwarf me. The notion that you could possibly have more of an understanding than me on this matter seems scarcely credible.

  6. You’re not likely to be convinced of what I am saying until you have lived and studied a few more years, so I am wasting my time. I’ve already spent more time on this than I should.

Peace,

  • B. A. Carey
22

Originally posted by apoweyn
[B]maestro1700,

have your opinions, defend your opinions, maintain your opinions. but never loose sight of the fact that they’re your opinions. not gospel truth.

stuart b. [/B]

Well said.

Peace,

  • B. A. Carey
23

…

heh this is pretty funny, you guys post really freaking fast i couldnt believe it i just came back to check my post to see if i should edit, for the betterment of the original poster which heh almost all of you have obviously forgotten about..but now i have a new objective argueing with you people who take this so personally..and it never ends on forums..never no matter how mature you think you are etc..

and holy hell would you look at that, just now i look down at the posts and i see..just as im loading the freaking response page brent has posted again!!

wth is going on here do you people live at this forum?? god i was just about to start my post when i saw that and starting typing this!

alright maybe i can now post without getting flooded with posts from people with to much **** time on their hands

looking at this i cant even begin to respond to what i originally wanted to, i have not now look over alot more..

first ill respond to merry who is the easiest to respond to..since hes so simple in his posts(thanx bud!)

“Not really, I don’t do forms.”(hey bud, you dont know what your talking about so i suggest you just leave this post before you poison the original posters mind, this isnt wrestling.)

apoweyn for one thing..id just like to say you of all people who have responded so “harshly” to my posts i respect you the most because your basically the only one who seems to have posted not out of anger but of intellectual understanding and clarity of mind. even though i might or might not agree with some of your oppinions, i do understand that these are all oppinions even though my posts might not come off that way, its because i do post with some anger somtimes..but mostly its just from the heart and not from having a bad temper or something..

Brent! whaoo youve sunk yourself deep with this one. bahaha

here we

  1. I’ve never taught TKD, but I have studied it (20 years ago), and I have taught Kung Fu professionally since 1990. go

you obviously missed the point when i was reffering to your TKD exp but its understandable coming from you

  1. You continue to argue semantics. I don’t care what you call it, sport, pastime, sperm whale.

i only argue this because other people argue it with me, and your the one who asked me to look it up in a dicitonary mr. contradiction

  1. It IS possible to master two styles simultaneously, but it depends on the styles. Some styles consist of only a few very specific techniques. It is quite possible to master two of these simultaneously provided they are not in conflict. As I mentioned before, to say that it is not possible is a declaration in ignorance of the details. To continue to argue this point underscores ignorance.

yea uhh brent ole buddy i made this same point in counting out numerous times the difference between system and style, technique and form and exp required so ok..yea you really got a perceptive nature dont ya?

  1. It is incorrect that no one studies multiple styles of Chinese martial arts simultaneously. It is also incorrect that no on has mastered multiple styles simultaneously. Many if not most teachers, whether they realize it or not, teach bits and pieces from other styles regularly.

again i never said this was done…and again you misunderstand! wowsers you need to take a attention defersiate(jokingly misspelling) disorder class..becuase you need it brotha

and the reason many teachers teach bits and pieces of other styles regularly is because like most people know much of the basics of kung fu is based on shaolin kung fu, and the basics of shaolin kung fu come from things like the shaolin five animals..so when a hung gar teacher might teach..a snake throat jab or arm pit strike, its no wonder

  1. You continue to try to educate me on the depth of Chinese martial arts. You don’t know how foolish this makes you look. I have studied martial arts for as long as I can remember, and have studied Chinese martial arts extensively both in the U.S. and in China. I have taught hundreds of students, and I personally train several hours every day. All of this, and I only have a fraction of my potential understanding and am humbled by my seniors who dwarf me. The notion that you could possibly have more of an understanding than me on this matter seems scarcely credible

that may be, but you like everyone else is taking this pretty personally and i never slandered your name like you have slandered mine countlessly..so maybe you should try some different teachers on morals and human relations

heh and 6 comes after 5 not 5 then 5 again..seems you must have really rushed this post in eh?

  1. You’re not likely to be convinced of what I am saying until you have lived and studied a few more years, so I am wasting my time. I’ve already spent more time on this than I should

and you again have missed the point of this post, it was to convince the original poster, not me :wink: your argueing with me when he is still confused, but some people are to concerned with themselves..whatever ive done what i said i would do in this post and that is respond to the people who reacted to my posts

peace seems..common here(wonder how many of you know what that means)

well whatever then peace :wink:

24

maestro1700,

i will never begrudge you a difference of opinion. only a style of presenting that opinion. if you and i can exchange opinions without anger and condescension clouding the issue (on both our parts), then we’re golden. sound like a plan?

stuart b.

25

Hey’d’ya hear that?! I don’t know anything.

Wow.

Thanks. I’ll remember that.

No offense, but it’s clear you didn’t seem to grasp what I posted. Read what I wrote again. It’s quite simple:

Your accomplishments as an MAist of any sort mean relatively little compared to your conduct as a person.

When you die, if “He was a master of ‘insert style here’” is your epitaph, then you weren’t trying hard enough.

26

merry i didnt say you dont know anything, but since i looked into your profile it sounds like from your experience you dont belong on this post..posting like you know what your talking about when it comes to cross training in different chinese martial arts namely kung fu. as was the original nature of the original posters question..and i didnt mean my last post to be a negative message towards anyone..its just an oppinion like this is so do what you want with it

and apoweyn i agree likewise, its a plan.

27

But that wasn’t what you posted ABOUT. You started talking about whether or not CMA was a recreational activity. I spoke to that.

I personally think training in two arts that aren’t drastically different is a **** poor idea, but that’s not at all what I was addressing in my comments–I was specifically talking about where martial arts is, on the scale of importance in somebody’s life.

Martial theory is not limited to CMA.
Life experiences are not limited to CMA.

To suggest that I cannot have or express an opinion on how much MA should “count” in a person’s life because I don’t do a CMA smacks of shoddy reasoning.

Now, if I were to tell you something along the lines of “Well, Tai Chi is better than WC,” then I certainly wouldn’t be speaking from a position of authority.

28

maestro1700,

i think it’s safe to say that dismissing merryprankster’s comments on the basis of his not having studied kung fu (which i haven’t done either, by the way) is missing the target.

first, he was addressing a bigger issue than just CMA. second, he’s a successful crosstrainer (to which i can personally attest).
and crosstraining is the topic of this thread.

like i said before, by all means debate. but can we please do so without tactics like telling people we disagree with to shove off?

stuart b.

29

Originally posted by apoweyn
[B]maestro1700,

second, he’s a successful crosstrainer (to which i can personally attest).

[/B]

OK, but is he a successful cross-dresser? That’s what I want to know. :smiley:

30

There’s a picture that somebody has of me in a dress, yes.

I wouldn’t call that endeavor successful, however. I make a phenomenally unattractive woman. Something about a long chin and a jutting browridge makes me look less feminine than say, female body builders.

31

you scared the cr*p out of me brent. i thought for a moment i’d actually written that. :slight_smile:

32

merrys post..

ok merry, if you want to get down to what you really meant in your post then ill pick at it

Not really, I don’t do forms ( i used this to respond to you in the way that i did because this is a forum about kung fu, its a post about crosstraining in kung fu and you seem to have no interest or exp in kung fu at all thats why i said what i said on this quote)

In the grand scheme of things, your mastery of a specific style counts a hell of a lot less than your standing as a good person, your abilities as a parent or how you treat others.

this is a comment not born of oppinion as apoweyn would say, your stating it like its fact, and infact martial arts(or a good martial art/teacher) and morals/good nature go hand in hand, martial arts teaches us self discipline, to control emotion and to focus the mind, and to cultivate the spirit. when you parent a child id guess you would have to apply most of the same techniques just from a different approach, i know how much of an accomplishment it is to raise a child, and i also know that raising a child and your progress as a martial artists being more important than one or the other are just a matter of oppinion, for example the only difference between a person who raises a child for 15+ years devoting most of his/her time to work and the child and a martial artist who devotes most of his/her time to work and his art is that fact that the end result is a human being and not a high level of skill but the emotional and mental level of maturity are about the same, unless the person begining his training already possesed these qualities.

And if you’re looking for spiritual enlightenment, try philosophy or a monestary.

now this is a very negative and ignorant statement. for one thing from this statement i know right away that you have no idea what it takes to attain enlightenment or even the meaning of the word..you might think you know what it means but its alot more complicated that that, and yet its not. Zen buddhisim can be found in many martial arts including the lifestyle of the samurai warrior, zen buddhisim which is known as the quickest way to reaching enlightenment is found in all aspects of shaoling gong fu(true shaolin gong fu) it was passed down from bodhidarma to the shaolin monks, and incorporated in all their gong fu. your statement is also another piece of evidence that you dont have the slightest clue about kung fu or its origins,philosophy and scope or its ultimate aim which is enlightenment.

so my short and concise post about “i dont practice forms” is why i posted what i did, i didnt want to draw it out as long as this but posts such as yours have “encouraged” me to post this one

33

I think you’ll find that there are many CMA practicioners on this board who agree that the primary aim of CMA is to teach you how to handle yourself in a confrontation, rather than enlightenment. In fact, an awful lot of them think that too many schools stress spiritual, vice martial development way too much. I think you’ll find that most of the WC guys don’t particularly feel that way, for instance, and none of the Shuai Chiao players here have discussed spirituality as an emphasis in their art. A number of folks on here have discussed people who were considered masters that were kind of shady in their personal and business dealings.

So, since even CMA’ers can’t agree on what role spirituality should play in CMA, I will suggest that your blanket statement regarding the role of MA in personal development is at the very least debatable, and that therefore, to tell me that I have no idea what the purpose of Kung Fu is is probably at the very least debatable as well.

Hmm–I know nothing of buddhism. Seeing as you are presuming to know a great deal about my education, I’ll just respond that that isn’t exactly accurate.

I stand by my statement: If you want enlightenment, there are paths that specialize in it. CMA doesn’t specialize in it. It might include some spiritual work as part of its training, but is that the primary purpose, really? I would say not.

Still, you’ve managed to miss the point again–I don’t have to be a practicioner of CMA to make the point that there are other things more important in life than the practice and mastery of CMA.

The people who love you now and who will love you in the future will not care about your skill level in a martial art. It will be something you do–but again, if mastery of a skill set is all that can be said–that’s a pretty poor epitaph.

34

merry this is it..

merry you missed the point of my posts every time i posted on this forum

i cant even begin to tell you how wrong you are and frankly im tired of arguing the same things over and over with you and others on this subject

the point is i never said the aim of kung fu is to attain enlightenment, again you dont understand…i said shaoling kung fus ultimate aim is to attain enlightenment and that is a FACT!

im not going to argue this crap anymore because its really begining to annoy me, and your lack of knowledge on the subject and your continuing misunderstadings are so annoying i want to split my skull with a hammer.

im going to end my posts on this subject now.

shaolin kung fu has the most extensive history than any other martial art in the world, imo it is the most effective form of self defense, physical and mental fitness and spiritual cultivation. its history and philosophy speaks for itself(if anyone here would care to look into it which judgeing from this forum no one has a clue) and its my oppinion that anyone who can find a good teacher, and can become comfortable in his/her style that once they master it, then there is no reason why they couldnt train in another style, but it is also my oppinion that training in 2 styles at once(and when i say styles i mean complete systems like hung gar etc) is unwise and in the long run will damage your martial arts training-this message is for the original poster and to whomever else cares to draw from it..either way i really dont care where else this post goes im leaving it now with this last message to the primary subject of the post.

35

The point of Shaolin Kung Fu is to attain enlightenment? There are people on this board who do Shaolin Kung Fu and they don’t necessarily agree with you. I’m not sure why this upsets you so much.

Are you supposing that should I just agree with you, and that because I don’t, I am somehow not educated on the subject? Perhaps I have educated myself on the subject and I simply disagree with you.

How about the people more experienced than I am in CMA, and specifically in Shaolin styles who don’t agree with you? Or does your lineage hold a monopoly on the truth?

If I lack knowledge on the subject it is because I have learned next to nothing about YOUR perspective, beyond “Shaolin Kung Fu has enlightenment as its true aim.”

I shall refrain from providing a link to the usual Kalari blather that I usually indulge in when somebody claims that Shaolin arts are the oldest systematized arts known.

Oh well–next I suppose you are going to tell me that forms training coupled with bodyweight exercises are all you need to be a good fighter.

36

maestro1700,

“the point is i never said the aim of kung fu is to attain enlightenment, again you dont understand…i said shaoling kung fus ultimate aim is to attain enlightenment and that is a FACT!”

i don’t understand the difference between the first statement and the second. you never said the aim of kung fu is enlightenment. but you did say that the ultimate aim of shaolin kung fu is enlightenment. and what’s more, that’s a fact. is that right?

well, i don’t think that history bears that out, really. think about it. the shaolin monks spent their time doing one of two things: 1) training in gung fu and 2) studying the buddhist sutras. presumably, the aim of studying buddhist sutras is enlightenment. so why study gung fu if it ostensibly serves the same purpose?

other explanations (some more likely than others) suggest that bodhidharma taught the monks exercises to strengthen their bodies against the rigors of meditation (which presumably is also for enlightenment). a slightly more pragmatic explanation still is that the monks had to learn to defend themselves on their travels and their monestary against brigands.

now, ask yourself this: how many gung fu people would you consider enlightened? if you do know some, how are they enlightened? what does that mean? if you don’t know any, have they simply not arrived yet?

and once again, here’s the thing maestro1700: presentation will take you a long way. many people here have been training for a long time. in some cases, they’ve been training, literally, for longer than you’ve been alive. that doesn’t mean that they’re always right and you’re always wrong. what it does mean, in all likelihood, is that your responses on this thread absolutely do not represent the first time that we’ve heard these things. personally, i came across the perspective you’re presenting about 16 years ago. the people you’re arguing with know what you’re telling them. they’ve heard it. they’ve thought about it. and they happen to disagree with it. so stop telling them that it’s fact. they’ve read the books, seen the shows on the tellie, and listened to the stories. but it isn’t fact. it’s conjecture. and you haven’t supported that conjecture with any backup from buddhist thought, chinese history, etc.

did buddha (sidhartha gautama) practice gung fu? no. he may or may not have been a member of india’s warrior caste (the kyshatriya). i don’t know. but when he was enlightened, it was through meditation. not martial arts. or so the story goes.

how about the bodhisattivas? kuan yin? maybe they trained, but it doesn’t ring any bells.

personally, i’m comfortable with the idea of martial arts as a vehicle of more esoteric goals. but to say that the primary aim of kung fu being enlightenment is fact is an indefensible position, to my mind. it’s opinion. defend it as such.

cool?

“shaolin kung fu has the most extensive history than any other martial art in the world.”

can you prove that, or is it simply the martial art about which you know the most? wrestling has an extremely long history as well, as do various weapon arts (both eastern and western).

“imo it is the most effective form of self defense, physical and mental fitness and spiritual cultivation. its history and philosophy speaks for itself(if anyone here would care to look into it which judgeing from this forum no one has a clue).”

that’s right. we’re all dumb and you’re smart. you can do better than this maestro. that’s not a challenge to beat me down. it’s a challenge to actually debate with us rather than telling us we’re stupid because we don’t agree with you. in return, perhaps we can start responding to you reasonably as well.

“and its my oppinion that anyone who can find a good teacher, and can become comfortable in his/her style that once they master it, then there is no reason why they couldnt train in another style, but it is also my oppinion that training in 2 styles at once(and when i say styles i mean complete systems like hung gar etc) is unwise and in the long run will damage your martial arts training.”

and that’s a perfectly valid and defensible opinion. thank you.

stuart b.

37

Maestro - it’s Dave from russbo, just wanted to say ‘welcome to KFO’ and good to see u’ve been entered at the deepend :slight_smile:

Hopefully u can learn from the ppl here, and them from you. Some guys here have a lot of knoweledge!

l8r,

david

38

If shaolin kung fu leads to enlightenment (and you are a practitioner), then your trainining should have helped you realize that there are no facts. Therefore, it cannot be a fact that the goal of kung fu is to attain enlightenment.

39

Good reply Stuart.

40

cheers sean. i appreciate it.

stuart b.