Training in different styles and schools

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

What do you think about training in two different styles at the same time?
I have been told many things about it. From one shouldn’t do it to the usefulness of it to understand the forms/techniques better.

Since I’ve studied several - Hung Gar, Tang Lang and the 5 Animals of Shaolin - I can only say I’ve gotten a lot out of them. Now I study two styles at the same time. Yes at times I mix them when training…like from Praying Mantis I’ll execute a Serpent strike to the throat (I never hit, obviously). I get so much out of them. Tang Lang and Hung Gar.

But some have told me that it’s not constructive. Others tell me it’s wrong to go to two different schools. It can be taken as betraying loyalty, but I just think that is a romanticized notion of what the schools used to represent AND probably still do in Asia. In the West, such notions are not felt. At least I don’t think so.

Comments?
peace brothers and sisters.

2

Bro…

My comments will be, it is fine to train both at the same time. But don’t use them during practices hours.

I think it is not a matter of loyalty. More like respect. I remember when I was holding a class, I would feel that during that class, I am teaching that particular style. And if you bring in others, I feel that it is an indirect challenge to me. Certainly don’t use the other style during sparring classes unless told to. Although I am sure people did not meant any of it, it is still a kind of psychological thing.
However, I would be really glad to exchange and play around with other styles when it was not during session time. During that time, I would be studying MA with my students as Martial Artist to martial artist. Not as teacher to student. But during class, I believe that the heirachy must be respected to maintain disipline.

3

It seems that the training for each style/system develops different muscle groups (primary and support) to different percentages. Like all colors can be produced by varying the amounts in the combinations of red, green and blue. Each style is it’s own color. In a system the forms are ordered as building blocks. Each has a particular benefit. The benefits are ordered to be able to significantly do the later forms. To properly do the later forms, a usual person needs the foundation to have the materials to be awe inspiring. Truely awe inspiring.

In general. Doing two at the same time~ would interfere with the other. You could learn the movements but not have that style’s intrinsic strength for doing that technique. You might do a mantis technique like a Hung gar practitioner. In essence this can be like Americans who read russian like it was English sounds. There’s a stereotype that the French don’t tolerate poor French speak. Doing one you would look messy and yucky. Your balance of power or timimng or muscle use or distancing might not be proper for the style you were supposed to be doing at the moment. Interchanging the different principles. Messing up each style.

You could come out strong and fast and formidible, but not anything at either Style. You would be no good as an instructor because you don’t have it clear in your head or Heart what really goes where–timimg, distance, power, strength,for the various techniques or forms ~ of each Style.

You could get enough training/understanding in one that you could take the other and still advance in the one.

4

I think there is something to be said for both sides of the fence on this one. The previous answers have been very good.
I think this is a highly individual thing.

To have one style influenced by another that has been studied is certainly not unsual. Also, the influence of the First studied (in fact, this would apply to the First of almost anything that happens to us or is done by us in problem solving, etc, in terms of our lives as a whole) can shine thru in other arts studied. So, whether the arts are studied simultaneously or one after the other might become a moot point in the long run. Not sure. It would be very interesting if both are begun at the same time, and this is first exposure.

I think that the degree of overlap or kinds of differences between the two styles are important too. As well as if the student feels conflict in these studies. If so, then it’s no good for that student, or the styles don’t mix well for that student or at all.

My opinion. If it’s right for the student, it’s wonderful. There’s certainly a difference between finding something you need in two different places and spreading yourself around like jam.

Mixing your learning in training is one of the perks. However, I would agree that this is a solitary activity in terms of practicing with others or sparring with others at school. I agree that it isn’t right then, and not accepted.

It is best if the student is honest and presents himself/herself honestly. How I mean this. Well, if you go to two schools and act like you’re there to master the system and have little interest in doing that, then I don’t think it’s right. On the other hand, I see no wrong in maintaining loyalty primarily to people of good heart and spirit (no matter which art is studied) and to one’s self and self development. I don’t think it’s wrong to seek to develop yourself honestly and with responsibility in more than one art, as long as you determine whether you are seeking mastery of one or both systems, or a type of mastery that does not entail learning either system (all forms, weapons, etc.) in the expected manner. This latter route is difficult to follow.

I would add that mixing styles, when it makes sense, and smushing them are two different things. The latter can amount to carelessness or just plain getting mixed up. It can also be the way you are processing the information. At some point one needs to be able to separate things out as well, or something could be overlooked. It’s a lot of work. No_Know, I’m not disagreeing with the practicalities you have mentioned, in spite of the fact that I would allow for additional studies when they are possible for that student.
I see it as what is right or wrong for the individual.

Cody

5

There’s nothing wrong with training with two different schools at the same time. It can hurt your martial arts if you don’t have a strong basics, but there are some that can pull it off pretty well. It’s easiest when you’re allready somewhat advanced in one style, but can be a major pain in the butt if you’re trying to learn the basics from two different styles at the same time.

Yes at times I mix them when training…like from Praying Mantis I’ll execute a Serpent strike to the throat (I never hit, obviously). I get so much out of them. Tang Lang and Hung Gar.

Is this during class? If it is that can be very disrespectful to the teacher.

6

Gosh, I’m more confused than before.
All your arguments are well posed, and if I may just add that I only do Hung Gar when training HG and Tang Lang when training TL.
It is the quick moment and opportunity given when sparring. I don’t think of it really.

I’m justifying…huff.
It is not often, as we don’t sparr often. But I respect the schools and never mix them during class.
I’ll be attentive.

7

From an instructors viewpoint:

If you are training at another school during times that I do not offer classes and you do not make me correct that person’s mistakes, you leave the other stuff outside the door and are 100% focused on what I am teaching when you are in my class, I don’t worry about it.

BUT…

Make the choice to miss one of my classes to go to the other class, start telling me how the other style or teacher does this or that, or start practicing the other classes stuff in my school, and the least you will get is for me to start ignoring your development in class. The porbabilities are that I will talk to you about respect for each teacher and tell you to make a choice.

8

styles

I dont know who said this but its a great quote that all martial artists should know imo

“I dont fear the thousand kicks youve practiced, but I do fear the kick youve practiced a thousand times.”

this means that, without practice and dilligence in any martial art you wont be effective basically.. no matter how many styles or forms you know.

like Wong Kiew Kit states in his book, when two masters face each other the successor will usually be the one who has had more training in force, because there are nearly countless counterattacks for every attack, and at this level your opponent will surely know them all. this isnt a direct quote but basically what he said in his book.

another good thing to know is a famous saying “the style doesnt make a fighter great, but a great fighter makes the style great.” this means that if your a great fighter, almost anything you train in will be useless unless you know how to apply it correctly.

ive also considered training in two styles at once..but if you look at some of the greatest martial artists in history..or legend most didnt train in two at once..many trained in or mastered 2 or 3 but really none of them trained in twice at the same time…this is probably because of some of the points stated above but never the less it should provide you with your answer

if you want to be great in many styles..master one at a time so you truly master it and all its aspects not just its form or certain techniques, then when you have truly mastered it move onto another and start from the begining..maybe this time you will progress faster because of your previous experience

this just my oppinion anyway

gl with whatever you do though

9

There’s nothing wrong with training multiple styles simultaneously. You may get them confused in class, but consider your reasons for training. If you are training to be an expert in style X, then don’t train in style Y.

I play the fiddle. I choose to practive Irish folk music because I want to be able to play Irish folk music well. If I wanted to be a better fiddle/violin musician, I would practice other kinds of music. This would make me a better musician, but would dilute my Irish style.

It is the same with Kung Fu. Kung Fu is an individual sport. There is no practical purpose for conformity. In reality, if you learn 1000 techniques, you are still not likely to use more than about 10 in a self-defense situation. You will use the few techniques that work the best for you. If some techniques are from style X, some from style Y, and some from style Z, then no problem.

Every person is different, that’s why we have so many different styles. Someone learned style X and wasn’t really satisfied, so studied style Y, then still dissatisfied came up with style Z (which is really just a combination of other styles with a new twist). In fact, I would argue there are at least as many styles as there are practitioners.

I never ask how good someone is at this style or that style, I ask how good his/her Kung Fu is. If a person if extremely effective in any style, he/she has good Kung Fu.

Peace,

  • B.A. Carey
10

Watch out for politics!! I mean, I was training in two styles at the SAME SCHOOL, thinking everything was hunky dory, and ended up catching flack. That’s all I have to say…

-FJ

11

brent..

Brent for one thing Kung fu isnt a sport..if your reffering to Kung fu as all chinese martial arts then ill say most all chinese martial arts arent a sport except wushu and siamese boxing

and if all different styles came from one person “trying out” one style not being satisfied, trying out another not being satisfied then making a whole different style then, it wouldnt be much of a style

the reason there are over 500 chinese martial arts is partially becuase of peoples different needs and wants from their martial art experience

but the primary reason is that for one china is an ancient civilization that has been practiceing kung fu for a long long time, and different martial arts or “styles” had to be formed so that fighters could be spontaneous in a fight and surprising so that their style would not only be effective but unknown so it would be more likely they would win the fight..being that their opponent couldnt defend against and unknown and effective style

another reason is that from different styles you develope different atributes of skill and strengths in your training as opposed to others that may not touch into the same techniques etc untill a later time or never at all

and as i said above i dont think its very good to train in 2 styles at once, but its not because you might get some moves “mixed” up or some techinques wrong etc its because no one can master 2 styles at once, and if you think you can your just wrong..but i shouldnt be using the word style this much becuase their are some fighting styles in chinese martial arts that are much easier to master than some..some can take up to 6 years just to get the basics others..you can master in a short period of time, but a complete system like hung gar..or a praying mantis style would take considerable skill to “master” at once, maybe we all are just having a misunderstand of the word master..i dunno but to me a master is someone who knows his style inside and out and continues to grow and learn from new aspects of its training such as in other branches etc

so thats that..hopes this helps the original poster

12

"All your arguments are well posed, and if I may just add that I only do Hung Gar when training HG and Tang Lang when training TL. "

I presume that they are Both using the same body though.

13

Re: brent..

Maestro,

Let’s not argue semantics over whether or not Kung Fu is a “sport”. If you look the word up in a dictionary, I’m sure you will agree that it qualifies, as a sport, especially if you are referring to Kung Fu within a particular style.

Also, at the age of 17, don’t presume to educate me in martial arts. I have been practicing longer than you have been alive, and was teaching professionally when you were in kindergarten.

Finally, with regards to new styles, I have two points. First, let’s not forget that many very popular and well-known styles have been around for fewer than 40-50 years, and were invented in exactly the way I described.

Mastery of a style is achieved mostly through physical, mental, and in some cases, spiritual conditioning. Only part of it is learned technique. To say that it is not possible to master two styles simultaneously is to speak in absolutes, ignorant of the details.

Many styles are quite similar and not mutually exclusive. Also, many styles are fairly narrow but complementary with little or no overlap or contradiction.

It is a romantic (and commercial) notion that one must devote oneself solely to a specific style. The subject of “mastery” is largely moot anyway. Very few people will progress far enough in any style for this issue to become relevant.

It is much better if a person is so inclined, to study multiple styles, then decide later (or not) which to pursue more intensely. For example, I spent several years studying Tae Kwon Do, completely ignorant of a much larger and richer martial arts experience. Had I opened my eyes to other styles at the same time, I would have quickly settled into my current interests.

Much of this also perpetuates the semantic argument over what constitutes a “style”, which apparently means something very specific to some people. Let us not forget that many renowned and proven martial artists, not the least of which is Bruce Lee, have shown the world the benefits of an absence of “style”.

You may have heard the expression, “From form, formlessness.” This basically means, having conditioned your body, eyes, reactions, etc., using specifically practiced movements, you can then let go of those memorized movements and adapt to the situation.

Peace,

  • B. A. Carey
14

ohh brent…

Sport N. [[ <disport ]] 1 any recreational activity; specific., a game, competition, etc. requiring bodily exertion 2 fun or play 3 a thing joked about 4 |colloq.| a sportsmanlike person 5 |colloq.| a showy, flashy fellow 6 Biol. a plant or animal markedly different from the normal type

Rec-re-a-tion (rek’re a’shan) N. [[ < L recreare, refresh ]] any play, amusement, etc. used to relax or refresh the body or mind –

Ac-tiv-i-ty (ak tiv’ te) N., pl. -ties 1 a being active 2 liveliness 3 a specific action

so what your saying is Martial arts or specifically chinese martial arts are similiar to tennis or basketball? i dont care how many years youve been teaching tae kwon do brent, but im sorry there is a huge difference

and i wasnt lectureing you or anything like that, nice to see you checked into my profile though :slight_smile:

and try actually reading my post, never did i say its not possible to train in 2 styles at once, i basically said it was unwise, and that almost no one could master 2 styles at once yea maybe im ignorant or maybe your wrong the point being is we are talking about chinese martial arts and in systems like choy li fut,wing chun,hung gar,southern shaolin,northern shaolin,tajijuan(chen,yang,wu,sun) baguazhang,xing yi etc you actually think you could achieve everything you are meant to from these styles while at the same time training in another at the same time?

thats a joke. period. what your saying is that you are wiser than all the ancient chinese martial artists to ever live..why dont you stop and think about why almost no one trains in two of the above styles at once i mentioned above, becuase ive thought about it extensively

for one thing..taijijuan? do you really know what that means? because it was originally trained in, much like shaolin gong fu to reach enlightenment through training of the mind, conditioning of the body and spirit..actually i think the man credited for first teaching taijijuan was a taoist monk who learned techinques from shaolin temple

the point im making brent, is that chinese martial arts served more than one purpose, and had much more depth and scope then you seem to realise

but whatever, your argument is weak, just because some student may train in one style at some school doesnt mean he knows jack **** about that style or system completely, students that just walk into class and are there for a month or so and leave because it doenst suit them is becuase they are ignorant, imo you should always research your style, teacher,lineage and philosophy before training in any martial art, specifically a chinese martial art

or maybe what your thinking of as a “style” or complete system is something like muy thai(siamese boxing) or kickboxing or san shou yea those combined you could master, but thats not what the original poster meant and i doubt its what you mean

think about what i stated above, and youll find its the truth, the foundation of all shaoling gong fu was the 18 lohan kuen and sinew metamorphosis taught by the great bodhidarma, and many people credit shaolin gong fu as being the forefather of not just gong fu but all martial arts..whats the saying go the sun always sets on shaolin or something like that??

think about it brent.

15

maestro1700,

i don’t have nearly the time to address your points in depth, but this statement:

“no one can master 2 styles at once, and if you think you can your just wrong”

just put a big dent in your credibility with me.

stuart b.

16

Maestro1700,

Umm, yeah, it is a hobby…a game…a recreation…a diversion from the other things we must take care of, just like basketball or tennis.

Anybody who takes it “more seriously,” is deluding themselves and not having nearly as much fun as they should.

17

the last two people..

yea.. uhh no

ill address merrys first

Umm, yeah, it is a hobby…a game…a recreation…a diversion from the other things we must take care of, just like basketball or tennis.

Anybody who takes it “more seriously,” is deluding themselves and not having nearly as much fun as they should

for one thing i cannot stress how much you people are missing the point, maybe the two of you last posters should take some reading classes..and im not being deragatory(spelling?) its the truth..for one thing i mentioned a few times in my past posts that i was reffering to CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS, and im sorry but ive played both basketball and tennis and i can confidently say that i have more experience in basketball than either of you and that was just an example heres another

chinese martial arts ie shaolin kung fu were developed to stengthen the mind, body, and spirit. shaolin kung fu was used for self defense, spiritual cultivation and mental and physical well being, which is our birthright.

basketball was developed to strengthen the body, and to entertain large audiences, the constant running is nothing compared to the stamina training in kung fu, nor is the mechanical strength training some players undergo anything compared to the internal energy a kung fu practioner usually developes (or which ALL true taijijuan practioners develope)

merry you are the one deluded..kung fu was made to enrich our lives and at a higher level reach enlightenment, it is imo the greatest form of self defense, and physical fitness as well as mental freshness and spiritual fulfillment anyone can train in and if your not having fun doing these things and progressing as you should be, then you are not practiceing what im talking about or your doing something wrong either way merry, someone whos gaining these atributes from their training, or is aspiring to is certainly not deluded, only the person who mocks this is the one deluded

apoweyn..you dont have enough time to stress your point but you have enough time to say how much my creditability sux then why did you bother posting? i dont know you, and i dont care at all what you think of me.. so why post that it wasnt making any creditable point, it was just to “slander” my name which you have no idea what your talking about

so thats just my response to the above posts, im sure in a couple hours brent will make some heroic come back on why his oppinion is better than mine on why training in 2 styles is better than mastering one and aspiring to the things i mentioned above, even though you might get a few forms or moves wrong oh but that doesnt matter..no not at all..

18

“It is important to think very well before entering a particular spiritual tradition (or training). Once you have entered you should stick to it. Do not be like a man who tastes food in all the different restaurants but never actually gets down to eating a meal. Think carefully before adopting a practice; then follow it through. This way you will get some results from dedicating even a little time each day. Alternatively, if you try to follow all the various paths you will not get anywhere.”

—Dalai Lama

Guess that sums it all up huh?
:smiley:

19

Not really, I don’t do forms.

It’s a hobby, a recreation. You miss that, you’re missing a lot. Doesn’t mean it can’t improve your life. Lots of people feel that way about basketball (which you seem to have a lot of experience in.)

In the grand scheme of things, your mastery of a specific style counts a hell of a lot less than your standing as a good person, your abilities as a parent or how you treat others.

When I get my Black Belt in BJJ I’ll have gone through a lot to get there. But that doesn’t really mean much compared with raising a kid properly.

And if you’re looking for spiritual enlightenment, try philosophy or a monestary.

Oh wait… you’re one of those guys trying to live the “warrior spirit,” aren’t you? :rolleyes:

20

maestro1700,

it’s precisely because of statements like “i can confidently say that i have more experience in basketball than either of you” that i wrote that.

how can you say that with any degree of confidence at all? did i even mention basketball? does my profile make any allusion to basketball? no. and yet you’ve ascertained my knowledge of basketball confidently.

we’ve all read the sales brochures on shaolin kung fu, enlightenment, self perfection, etc. and i’m not going to sit here and tell you that those reasons aren’t valid. but your credibility is shot because of your insistence that you know and understand more than people many years your senior ever will.

have your opinions, defend your opinions, maintain your opinions. but never loose sight of the fact that they’re your opinions. not gospel truth.

stuart b.