If I was asked advice, I’d tell people to understand the psycology of misdirection. This has worked much better for me over the years at it helps prevent the need for a violent response, or keeps the opponent confused, distracted or off-gaurd - allowing you to take the element of surprise in a violent encounter.
street fighting
For our beginning students, we work on defending against one attacker either open handed or with a knife/club. For them, we also spend several weeks out of the year working in “every day” clothes and outside of the kwoon environment. Inside the kwoon, we’ll also set up people and pads as inanimate objects that they have to spar around.
Our philosophy is that beginners should spend most of their time learning how to move, build root, posture and build a basic understanding of body mechanics…building a strong foundation.
Students approaching beginning black and beyond work more advanced tactics. Many drills we use are similar to those already listed in the forum. When we practice against armed opponents (knives, clubes, etc.) we also use rubber and wooden weapons, but we coat them in chalk, so if we get hit, we can see where and how. From there, we can assess how to adjust.
Another difference for advanced students is that when we do gun techniques, that don’t involve headshots, we use low powered airsoft guns. Again, it allows us to understand mistakes and adjust.
As with beginning students, advanced students will practice in outside settings, but the environments are more varied and loaded with more variables. Also unlike the beginning students, the conflict does not stop if it goes to the ground, regardless of the surface (grass, rock, concrete, asphalt). Hence, the possibility of injury is greater, but my Sifu’s philosophy is that we’ve spent years training, we should have something to show for it.
A lot of very good responses, but how do you all practice these things and how often?
I think “training” for the street is kind of a misnomer. The real “training” for the street is 90% mental and 10% physical. And what I mean is that you need to be mentally flexible and opportunistic to survive a street encounter.
Sometimes you need to de-escalate a violent situation, not inflame it. You need to know to know how to do that and recognize when its not working. Sometimes you need to run away. Sometimes you need to use violence but be cool and calm enough to change tactics immediately as the situation changes. Sometimes you need to use intimidation and that’s enough.
The “street” is dynamic and so you can’t get locked into a certain strategy or get swept away by angry emotions.
And what this takes is knowing yourself really well and being able to read people and situations, which, unfortunately may only come from experience.
That’s why I think in the old days all these semi-mystical traditions crept into what was basically physical discipline. Meditation creates “space” in your mind. When you have “space” you’re mind can move more easily.
It’s like those little plastic games where you slide the tiles to put back together a jumbled picture. If there aren’t any blank spaces in your game you can’t move any of the tiles.
Your mind is the same way. If its so full and thoughts and emotions are circling around in your head then you have no room to move and in martial arts terms to change strategies.
Fp
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;730952]Many people make the claim the kung fu can be differentiated from MMA in that it trains for the no-rules environment of “the street”, while MMA is concerned with training for the limited, rules-based venue of the sport.
“The street” contains many uncontrollable variables, such as multiple opponents, weapons, uneven footing, and a variety of potential physical obstacles. The sport version of MMA is much more controlled environment that can be anticipated to a greater degree beforehand.
Most people would agree that to get the most out of your training, you must spar. For those who train for "the street”, how often do you spar with and against weapons? Multiple opponents? Multiple opponents with weapons? What kinds of weapons do you spar with and against? What kinds of mixes do you use with mutliples? 2 on1? 3 on 1? 2 on 3? 3 on 5? What kinds of weapons do you throw into the mix?
For those that do spar, how do you keep the injuries down? How do you make it realistic?
What are the things you have learned from your sparring experiences?
How does the environment affect your ability to fight multiple and/or weapons wielding opponents? Do your specific techniques change when facing multiple opponents and/or weapons? Do your tactics change? Does the mix of how important technique vs. strategy is change? What happens when it is you, rather than your opponent, who has the advantage either in terms of weapons or numbers? How do bladed vs. blunt edged vs. projectile vs. firearms weapons change the tactics and techniques?[/QUOTE]
In short: Please state the manner in which you train so that I may tell you that it is unrealistic, and far inferior to MMA’s training regimens, which turn out cold-stone killers in 24 hrs. flat.
With regards to knife-fighting:
If you ever meet a knife-fighter in the street, turn and run, or give him what he wants (but make sure he’s not going to throw his knife at you). Unless, of course, you’ve got a bigger knife than he does, and you know how to use it without dancing around like whirlybird.
If your teacher does not tell you this the first time he hands you a knife to practice knifefighting, then look for a new teacher, or take his knifefighting propaganda with a grain of salt.
Mine scared the living hell out of me that first day. He showed me just what could happen in the blink of an eye–and you’d never even see the knife in his hand. He made very small motions. Nothing big or fancy. The forms he taught were big and fancy, but the actual apps in the forms were very controlled and slight. From then on, I’ve seen a lot of sloppy knife fighters here and there, often many with very little practical training. Practicing knife disarms is alright, b/c most people will try to stab or slash you in about 3 different ways. But a knifefighter will make really small motions, quick cuts you can’t really block without getting sliced up. But it’s rarely stab and block=disarm. Sometimes he’ll use the knife so you react to it with your common-stock-2-handed-disarms, then he’ll hit you with a punch so that you reel back, so that he can slice you the hell up like a pack of ground beef.
I’m alright with a knife–not great. But I’m good enough to know that you can’t rely on your average disarms. Most are too complicated anyways, or require the use of two hands (never a good idea).
How many here have teachers who have used a knife on somebody or have had a knife used on them?
would have to say that keeping distance and trying to negotiate a peace works as well. ie: crazy girlfriend wants to stab you, but you can overwhelm without being overly destructive even when she has a knife and even if its a big one. this has happened
Yes that can work. Still, the guy I knew who died of the stab wound to the leg was stabbed by his girlfriend.
In a life or death situation there is no overly destructive.
you do not want to be in a clinch when your opponent has a knife,
I wasn’t talking about a knife situation here. In my experience most fights end up in a clinch position if even for a second. It’s good to know how to deal with it.
Your hands shouldn’t be shaking
They weren’t shaking wildly but fatigue is to be expected after a hard bag workout.:rolleyes:
“Most people would agree that to get the most out of your training, you must spar.”
***ABSOLUTELY.
"For those who train for “the street, how often do you spar with and against weapons?”
***ABOUT once a month for each.
“Multiple opponents?”
***SAME thing.
“Multiple opponents with weapons?”
***NEVER…Just run like hell.
“What kinds of weapons do you spar with and against?”
***AGAINST knives, sticks, baseball bats. I use 2 tonfa (one each hand) adapted to Traditional Wing Chun Butterfly swords…sticks (if fairly long) adapted to TWC Dragon Pole…and one knife or stick adapted to Butterfly Swords.
"What kinds of mixes do you use with mutliples? 2 on1? 3 on 1? 2 on 3? 3 on 5?
***Two on one…and three on one.
What kinds of weapons do you throw into the mix?
***NONE…if you’re outnumbered and they have one or more weapons…run like hell.
“For those that do spar, how do you keep the injuries down?”
***LOTS of protective equipment - a progrssive approach to power and speed…and a quick stoppage if/when heavy bows are landed.
“How do you make it realistic?”
***THIN fingerless gloves - kicks to everywhere except the groin - with sneakers on (but lightweight Converse Allstars)…and very few rules expect be ready to stop on a dime if something heavy gets landed.
“What are the things you have learned from your sparring experiences?”
***WHAT works and what’s fluff…more or less.
“How does the environment affect your ability to fight multiple and/or weapons wielding opponents?”
***WHERE you are affects one’s abilities enormously.
“Do your specific techniques change when facing multiple opponents and/or weapons?”
***AGAINST multiple opponents and/or weapons it’s all about trying to position myself such that I’m never in the middle - and it’s about trying to take someone out very quickly - and then hopefully to use that position as an escape hatch get out of there…against a weapon it’s all about techinqies meant to take it away from him.
"Do your tactics change?
***SEE above.
“Does the mix of how important technique vs. strategy is change?”
***YES…it’s all about strategy…positioning yourself so as to be able to escape is first and foremost.
“What happens when it is you, rather than your opponent, who has the advantage either in terms of weapons or numbers?”
***THEN God help him if I happen to be very angry.
“How do bladed vs. blunt edged vs. projectile vs. firearms weapons change the tactics and techniques?”
***DEPENDS on exactly what I have in my hand…if I have a short knife and he has a baseball bat - it’s time for me to leave. Against a firearm…LOL.
Alright Already…
How Many times has Knifefighter brought up this same question???
We know he is a professional troll. But now I will humor him somewhat..
1)KF: How Many times have you faced a naked blade in a real situation? (have you been attacked , Raped or otherwise?)
Have you faced enough “real life” to say you know what to do…sometimes???
- The best way to become a real fighter is to walk into a bar and start SH!te w/the toughest looking guy there and when he kicks your butt, then you ask him for lessons. this is the only way you can learn to defend yourself.
What is your response to this KF?
Whatever all these punks say about Sigung Chan Tai San and his crew, they brought CTS’s most IMPORTANT lesson to this forum and it was “YOU learn more from your losses than your victories” (paraphrase)
Let’s settle this w/o BS threats and w/real HONEST facts.:rolleyes:
If…If…If…If
What if? what if? What if?
What if your attacker came at you w/ a sharpened pineapple?
Can I tell you how many “Schools” I have quit 'cause all they did was play “What if?”
To quote my Dad (Buddha rest his magnificent soul):
What if my Aunt had bawls? (things would be opposite…took me along time to figure that out)
I wanna learn Kung Fu because it IS! That’s all! Just 'cause it IS!!!
I don’t know when life will call on me to defend myself w/a Kwan Dao. I just wanna learn how to use it.
Oh yeah, KF GUNS make everything you could ever say OBSOLETE!!!
What now?
What now?
[QUOTE=ingchao;731577]
1)KF: How Many times have you faced a naked blade in a real situation? (have you been attacked , Raped or otherwise?[/QUOTE]
He plays with a naked blade every morning, and every evening. And I have a feeling he was raped by a CMA practitioner. WHy else would he be so jaded?
Why all the harshness towards KF? I think a lot of times he posts very good questions that people need to answer for themselves. Of course he’s a troll. If he wasn’t, he’d be a lot easier to ignore. =)
Harshness? It’s all good and fun.
My students can get their “streetfighting” experience on my 5 acre pistol range. 
I’ve had a chance to work with some of the older generation of kung fu teachers, some Chinese, some Chinese-American.
I didn’t get a lot of “this is for the street”, I got more of “this is for life”.
One teacher was an officer in the KMT during a ten year war with Japan and the communists. Kungfu and Tai Ji helped him survive.
One teacher grew up during a time when there was very little food, and lots of chaos, brutality and turmoil. Kungfu helped him survive.
One teacher’ entire family was killed during the Japanese invasion, he fled hundreds of miles with other refugees as a young man. Later he was imprisoned for a decade. Kungfu and Tai Ji helped save his life.
Another teacher I know almost died from a virulent disease, but Chi Kung and Tai Ji helped him survive.
These situations mix hardship, bitter times, oppression, violence, social turmoil, backstabbing, disease, cruelty from all sides, and heartbreaking sacrifice.
In the long run that’s what Chinese martial arts have been developed from. They come out of long history of bandit attacks, armed invasion, famine, forced marches , political upheaval and the desperation of trying to put some food on the table.
Will BJJ help you during a time like this? perhaps. Will MMA help you during these times? Perhaps. I’m not sure, I’ve never researched those arts. But I’ve met people face to face who’s training and knowledge drawn from the huge database of CMA saved their lives during times of unbelieveable hardship. Having seen that face to face helped me understand some of the how and why of Chinese martial arts.
Whether who can beat who in a multiple attacker knifefight is a fun question, but irrelevant to CMA training. To me it’s about survival. And luckily multiple attacker knifefights are almost the least of our worries.
Sincerely,
Jess O’Brien