Training for "The Street"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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Many people make the claim the kung fu can be differentiated from MMA in that it trains for the no-rules environment of “the street”, while MMA is concerned with training for the limited, rules-based venue of the sport.

“The street” contains many uncontrollable variables, such as multiple opponents, weapons, uneven footing, and a variety of potential physical obstacles. The sport version of MMA is much more controlled environment that can be anticipated to a greater degree beforehand.

Most people would agree that to get the most out of your training, you must spar. For those who train for "the street, how often do you spar with and against weapons? Multiple opponents? Multiple opponents with weapons? What kinds of weapons do you spar with and against? What kinds of mixes do you use with mutliples? 2 on1? 3 on 1? 2 on 3? 3 on 5? What kinds of weapons do you throw into the mix?

For those that do spar, how do you keep the injuries down? How do you make it realistic?

What are the things you have learned from your sparring experiences?
How does the environment affect your ability to fight multiple and/or weapons wielding opponents? Do your specific techniques change when facing multiple opponents and/or weapons? Do your tactics change? Does the mix of how important technique vs. strategy is change? What happens when it is you, rather than your opponent, who has the advantage either in terms of weapons or numbers? How do bladed vs. blunt edged vs. projectile vs. firearms weapons change the tactics and techniques?

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In all likelihood I’d bust out my gat and go rattattattat and brackabracka on his @$$.

Or just run away from a multiple opponent robbery/fight using defensive manuevers to allow me to get away.

3

the rules about the street are that there are no rules.

there may be fighting odds/chances against your personal belongings and life.

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the best odd would be stay away or run away from the situations that are not in your favor.

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MMA seems to be mano a mano or one against one and tapping out.

the street would be you against many people and with weapons, too.

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:eek:

4

I’d argue that the average ‘streetfighter’ is really not that good of a fighter, and you actually face much more challenging opponents in free-fighting venues.

In my club we do all sorts of stuff along the lines of multiple attackers, weapons sparring, et al… although when I really break out this stuff, it’s a steady stream to the medic, and that is IN a controlled situation. Honestly KF, I don’t think most folks really get the distinction you are making here. While combat sports can develop some bad habits, and not cover other important facts bridging from ‘sport’ to ‘combat’ - I don’t see that happening so much with the current crowd. There are plenty of folks seeking to stay true to ‘real’ skills while benefitting from combat sports.

Suggestion - everybody go out and buy Geoff Thompsons videos on ‘the fence’ and ‘animal day.’ Now, that is some fun and some tasty reality. Too often multiple attacker drills I see consist of the attackers dropping at the slightest touch, when what you really need is **** good footwork and stopping power, neither of which are exhibited in the ‘standard’ drills I see in most schools.

FWIW.

5

[QUOTE=Mas Judt;731109]In my club we do all sorts of stuff along the lines of multiple attackers, weapons sparring, et al…[/QUOTE]
Since you seem to be one of the few people doing this, tell me about the things you have learned.

although when I really break out this stuff, it’s a steady stream to the medic, and that is IN a controlled situation.

How often are you doing this and what kinds of injuries are you seeing?
How do you think they might be prevented?

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[QUOTE=Mas Judt;731109]I’d argue that the average ‘streetfighter’ is really not that good of a fighter, and you actually face much more challenging opponents in free-fighting venues.

In my club we do all sorts of stuff along the lines of multiple attackers, weapons sparring, et al… although when I really break out this stuff, it’s a steady stream to the medic, and that is IN a controlled situation. Honestly KF, I don’t think most folks really get the distinction you are making here. While combat sports can develop some bad habits, and not cover other important facts bridging from ‘sport’ to ‘combat’ - I don’t see that happening so much with the current crowd. There are plenty of folks seeking to stay true to ‘real’ skills while benefitting from combat sports.

Suggestion - everybody go out and buy Geoff Thompsons videos on ‘the fence’ and ‘animal day.’ Now, that is some fun and some tasty reality. Too often multiple attacker drills I see consist of the attackers dropping at the slightest touch, when what you really need is **** good footwork and stopping power, neither of which are exhibited in the ‘standard’ drills I see in most schools.

FWIW.[/QUOTE]

Are these drills ,in the link below, considered to display good footwork and stopping power? Are they training for “the street”? Interesting ideas this crowd has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfkjKMQP9y8

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The last place I trained didn’t spend any time on weapons fighting or multiple attackers but previous schools I attended did touch on these.

I’ve done knife and gun drills with rubber knives and guns, stick (versus empty hand) drills with real sticks. Some good, some questionable. I’ve been to a handful of schools and every one had some questionable material.

I’ve done multiple attacker drills where you stand in the center of a circle and teacher calls on guys to attack you, sometimes sequentially from different directions and sometimes simultaneous.

One school we did a free for all where the guy that was ‘it’ was attacked by the rest of the class until exhaustion (or excessive injury).

I’ve also done classes where you wear your everyday street clothes (what you would most likely be wearing when attacked) to discover any differences in functionality with different clothing and get comfortable. Women are the big losers there.

A lot of that was done at my first Kenpo school. He was big on variety. I’m surprised he never got someone to jump us in the parking lot for real life practice.

He once gave another student (just out of the military where he boxed, clean cut and built, I was a skinny hippie with long hair and earring) permission to beat the crap out of me in class if he could.

Stupid me didn’t know about the deal so when he paired us up to spar I was point sparring light contact while he was trying to take my head off. I was blocking everything he threw but when I realized he was going all out I dropped him with a roundhouse kick to the solar plexus. I found out about the setup after class.

Knifefighter will like the fact that my teacher went on to learn JiuJitsu (probably BJJ) some time after that (about mid 80s) and currently teaches what he calls Kenpo JiuJitsu. That guy was a trip. His name is Cliff Comparato if anyone’s heard of him.

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[QUOTE=Yao Sing;731157]The last place I trained didn’t spend any time on weapons fighting or multiple attackers but previous schools I attended did touch on these.[/QUOTE]
So, what are some of the things you learned related to the questions I posed above?

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You can’t train for the street. you can just train as you are shown an best know how based on teh experience of those who came before and adapting with situations as they arise.

situational awareness training and methods that help ingrain the habits associated with situational awareness are much more valuable “street ready” training than any martial tactical practice.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;731160]You can’t train for the street. you can just train as you are shown an best know how based on teh experience of those who came before and adapting with situations as they arise.

situational awareness training and methods that help ingrain the habits associated with situational awareness are much more valuable “street ready” training than any martial tactical practice.[/QUOTE]
But what about all the kung fu guys who say that is what kung fu is for?

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[QUOTE=Juan Nowon;731147]Are these drills ,in the link below, considered to display good footwork and stopping power? Are they training for “the street”? Interesting ideas this crowd has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfkjKMQP9y8[/QUOTE]
I’m not familiar with Thompson’s program, but I can’t say that video was too impressive unless they were training to poke the eyes of random people who are walking down the street.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;731164]But what about all the kung fu guys who say that is what kung fu is for?[/QUOTE]

uh, I’m a “kungfu guy”.

chinese martial arts, like any martial arts can be used for attack or defense.

but training is just training.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;731169]uh, I’m a “kungfu guy”.

chinese martial arts, like any martial arts can be used for attack or defense.

but training is just training.[/QUOTE]
OK, then… let’s break it down into multiple/weapons vs. unarmed and one person.

Same topic as above, but we can replace street with “just training” if that makes you happier.

Same questions regarding insights apply.

14

lemme break it down a little.

a soldier enters the armed forces and gets his 13 weeks of boot camp.
thios is hard training, mostly conditioning, heaps of cardio vascular stuff and strength building through gruelling routines.

once that’s been gotten through, they get a station.

at the station, depending on their units level of participation in whatever, they continue some forms of training and where it lacks, there is provisions made for those soldiers that do wish to continue training conditioning stuff and often there ar clubs on base where soldiers can learn any number of various types of self defense and attack methods and tactics.

some soldiers can specialize and do rigorous martial training such as rangers, seals and other special ops type teams.

a guy can go through all of this for years before he steps out of a c130 and gets shot in the head before he gets his gear out of stow.

and that’s my point about training.

Train because you want to train. You don’t need any other reasons.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;731171]a guy can go through all of this for years before he steps out of a c130 and gets shot in the head before he gets his gear out of stow.
and that’s my point about training.

lTrain because you want to train. You don’t need any other reasons.[/QUOTE]
I guess, according to your “point”, the military doesn’t need to train its personnel.. only those guys who want to train.

But that is another thread. This one is to discuss insights learned from training with multiple opponents and/or weapons in a realistic manner.

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Everyone knows the best way to train for the street is in a nice kwoon, wearing a fancy uniform and initiating all attacks with a big karate shout.

These days I train mostly what would be called self defense so I’ll give it a go.

situational awareness training and methods that help ingrain the habits associated with situational awareness are much more valuable “street ready” training than any martial tactical practice.

How do you train that and from whom do you learn it?

Most people would agree that to get the most out of your training, you must spar. For those who train for "the street,
how often do you spar with and against weapons? Sometimes weekly, sometimes longer between sessions.

Multiple opponents? Sometimes weekly, sometimes longer between sessions. Weapons are treated as something that should be expected at all times.

Multiple opponents with weapons? Yes, weapons are a given.

What kinds of weapons do you spar with and against? Dirt, lamps, plastic bags, handguns, non-rubber knives, whatever is at hand or on your person is fair game.

What kinds of mixes do you use with mutliples? 2 on1, 3 on 1. It’s a small group.

What kinds of weapons do you throw into the mix? Dirt, lamps, unloaded handguns or airsoft, knives, whatever is at hand or on your person.

For those that do spar, how do you keep the injuries down? How do you make it realistic?
Some times you have to be careful, sometimes we use the less damaging versions of a move in order to go full speed, other times we’ll use equipment. Still injuries happen but so far nothing that kept anyone from training.

How does the environment affect your ability to fight multiple and/or weapons wielding opponents?
A busy environment helps me, a clean one works against me. Good thing the world doesn’t look like a martial arts school.

Do your specific techniques change when facing multiple opponents and/or weapons?
Not much. Those are life and death situations and I will try whatever I have to in order to survive.

17

knifefighter

I agree.

While TCMA is good training for simple self defense and MMA is great for becoming a professional athlete (just like a boxer, etc)

many schools do a really lousy job in addressing Self Defense in general especially in the “uncontrollable variables”.

The act of “assuming roles” in setting up specific situations is what separates the Okay practitioner to a High Level one.

As a martial artist I try to balance my training in all areas. In my "youth:rolleyes: " i was able to dedicate almost 7 days a week to training but now with family and other responsibilities I’m lucky if I can dedicate 2-3 days a week at from 1-2 hrs per session. So of course I can’t do everything, everyday/week. Sometimes I’m only able to practicing certain items once a month:(

So if you have alot of time then Sparring should be at least 3 times a week in all its forms. Skill level has alot to do with just what the sparring session contains as beginners compared to advanced students is great span.

Yep 1 on 1 to 3 on 1, tag teaming also. For weapons I emphasize the basic 3 stick knife gun but once in awhile we get funky with the folding chair and garbage can.

Injuries are inevitable. having the proper gear is great but being able to trust each other is more important. One thing we always do is have atleast one “referree” who conduct the session. But still injuries still occur, (sprains, bloody noses, split lips (that chip tooth cost me$$), Still havent gotten confortable with the pinching yet:o

18

to paraphrase Hobbes, real knife fights are “nasty, brutish and short” (actually, Abel would probably characterize Knifefighter in the same way, but I digress…), so I think the whole practice of showing “clean” techniques (e.g. - the vid on the “other” thread that will remain nameless) is a good example of how you can take a reality based context and stylize it - in other words, sequencing techniques based on a non-responding opponent is basically assuming that after your initial defense, he will just not attack again: I always believed that even if the guy is good for one attack only, there’s a good chance that he might accidently slice you even without trying to…

personally, I am most concerned with the INITAL contact: how do you establish control as soon as possible? for example, a principle based approach might suggest you try to control the knife user’s elbow / upper forearm with both hands as opposed to at the wrist, because you limit degrees of freedom more, have better control over the center of mass, and have a better chance getting your hands on that area in general, versus grabbing a wrist / hand (comments on this?); this is what I’d practice the most - 'cause if you don’t have that control, there’s no point in really practicing follow up stuff anyway…

environmental training is critical - getting out into “the street” and learning how to improvise using cars, garbage cans, lamposts, other people as barriers (ok, well, maybe not lamposts); also learning not to run into oncoming traffic when fleeing from an assailant - little things like that; another thing that people rarely take into account: what would you do if you were with your family? holding your baby? obviously, you don’t want to fight in those situatioons, but what if you had no choice? (oh, and how do you train KNOWING that you don’t have any choice?)

finally, if you are in a situation where you are that concerned about being regularly atttacked by someone with a knife, you should either a) reassess your life; b) carry something equally or more lethal, and learn to draw it very quickly…

19

try explaining those scratches to your wife/girlfriend:D

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[QUOTE=Juan Nowon;731147]Are these drills ,in the link below, considered to display good footwork and stopping power? Are they training for “the street”? Interesting ideas this crowd has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfkjKMQP9y8[/QUOTE]

Why would you take the effort to get the back of someone who want to fight you only to square off face to face with them again?