traditional training and sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
41

Right, “A” WC guy, not “THE” wing chun guy or “THE BEST” WC for that matter. One guy that people want to use as the ultimate example of Wing Chun.

It just seems so small.

The 3 “CMA” guys(out of God knows how many other cometitors) in UFC that somehow represent all of kung fu.

The chan ng match which is a joke even among CMA teachers.

Botztepe’s sucker blidside of cheung then running away. Not exactly a match.

And the other hand full of clips here and there. Its hardly representative.

If the shoe were on the other foot you may understand.

If someone showed you these less than 10 clips that showed what you do( and in our case sporadic samples from completely different styles) in a less than flattering way and you knew there was much more than this in what you study, wouldn’t you stand up and say “whoa, thats not the whole deal!”?

And lets say that your favorite sport WASN’T filmed and televised on a regular basis,and said person only saw these 10 and no other out of the hundreds of thousands of practitioners throughout the world. Does that person actually have a full view to base an opinion?

It does go both ways too.

My point simply was that people on both sides of any camp will root for their home team even within the same types of systems. Making a generalization from a single moment in time is just wrong.

In the case of the WC guy, If I critique him, I’m critiquing JUST him, not the style or the entierty of CMA. To me he was a poor representative AT THE TIME.
If people wan’t to run with it and twist it into some excuse for or against, thats their problem. If people want to cast this guy as the golden calf of some nebulous proof that will justify some stance, thats their business. They can and will believe what they want to believe. However , most WC guys would still sit back and say “Dayum!, that guy was FAT and he sucked!” And with all that he at least beat one person.

42

Originally posted by SifuAbel
[B]Right, “A” WC guy, not “THE” wing chun guy or “THE BEST” WC for that matter. One guy that people want to use as the ultimate example of Wing Chun.

It just seems so small.

The 3 “CMA” guys(out of God knows how many other cometitors) in UFC that somehow represent all of kung fu.[/b]

It’s not a way of saying they represent all of kung fu. I’m addressing what you guys are saying in response to them stepping up. If they were MMA, than the mma crowd would be like - “good job for getting in there, you win some, you lose some,” not “well, his thai boxing sucked and his ground work was mediocre, so yeah, he’s not a REAL mma guy…”

The chan ng match which is a joke even among CMA teachers.

And yet these jokes were masters?

In the case of the WC guy, If I critique him, I’m critiquing JUST him, not the style or the entierty of CMA. To me he was a poor representative AT THE TIME.

I completely agree with that. I don’t think cma on a whole sucks because a few guys got tooled. I do think that if they are going to compete, however, they would have to make some changes to their training regimens. It’s just that the critique - from other cma - is ALWAYS negative, with the exception of O.

43

It’s not a way of saying they represent all of kung fu. I’m addressing what you guys are saying in response to them stepping up. If they were MMA, than the mma crowd would be like - “good job for getting in there, you win some, you lose some,” not “well, his thai boxing sucked and his ground work was mediocre, so yeah, he’s not a REAL mma guy…”
How many times have I heard “tomato can” tossed around? Too many to count. :rolleyes:

It’s just that the critique - from other cma - is ALWAYS negative, with the exception of O.
Well, you’re lumping about 800 styles together under the cma banner, so, stylistically, you are going to have people talking trash. That’s life.

44

Originally posted by SifuAbel
[B]If someone showed you these less than 10 clips that showed what you do( and in our case sporadic samples from completely different styles) in a less than flattering way and you knew there was much more than this in what you study, wouldn’t you stand up and say “whoa, thats not the whole deal!”?

And lets say that your favorite sport WASN’T filmed and televised on a regular basis,and said person only saw these 10 and no other out of the hundreds of thousands of practitioners throughout the world. Does that person actually have a full view to base an opinion?[/B]
It’s pretty simple. If we felt our “styles” were being misrepresented, we would record some footage of our fights and present that as “how it should be done.”

45

Originally posted by SifuAbel
thats more drilling than sparring.
You just made my point about the difference between traditional and modern training. Traditional methods would drill it, while modern training would spar.

If I am using a only a jab, but am trying to land it while defending against your jab and you are doing the same, it is sparring. We are using isolated tools, but we are still sparring.

46

To me, sparring is a free flow with contact. Doing one jab and defending it over and over again is still a drill. We do the exact same thing, but we call it a drill. Not doing the above in whatever name you choose is not “traditional” its just incomplete.

47

"If they were MMA, than the mma crowd would be like - “good job for getting in there, you win some, you lose some,” not “well, his thai boxing sucked and his ground work was mediocre, so yeah, he’s not a REAL mma guy…”’

Doubtful, if the guy was MMA and he sucked, you would say he sucked. Not to would be a dishonest whitewash. By the above you’re suggesting that the MMA crowd would just pat him on the back and say “good job, you may suck but you’re MMA so thats ok, keep on sucking.” …!!!

Its a matter of HOW the WC guy fought, not IF he won or lost that matters to me.

“It’s just that the critique - from other cma - is ALWAYS negative, with the exception of O.”

Its still a very small number. Saying it “always” happens is a blanket. We aren’t talking about 50 matches here, we’re talking about 3(in UFC).

Pehaps when more CMA people get a hold of video recorders and get a little more vain we will see more stuff on an amateur level. And since the san shu/da people are separating themselves from CMA and becomeing yet another animal, we will have find yet another pro venue. I must admit MK is correct when he says “Well, you’re lumping about 800 styles together under the cma banner, so, stylistically, you are going to have people talking trash. That’s life.”

“And yet these jokes were masters?”

In whose eyes? Certainly not mine, or in the eyes of many others. These guys were masters in their own little circle, in their own minds. Its yet another blanket to call those guys “THE” masters. These guys have no connection to me or my line, why would I even care if they sucked, or botztepe or anybody outside of my circle for that matter? We’re NOT all one big happy family.

48

We’re NOT all one big happy family.

That’s for sure. Even in the same family there is often unrest.

All that aside, the “top” is relative to the stack it belongs to.

49

Originally posted by SifuAbel
To me, sparring is a free flow with contact. Doing one jab and defending it over and over again is still a drill. We do the exact same thing, but we call it a drill. Not doing the above in whatever name you choose is not “traditional” its just incomplete.
Hmmm… two people are moving around. They are both allowed to throw the jab whenever they feel it will be most effective. They are both trying to land the jab on the other person, trying to get through each other’s defenses. Each is trying to use his jab defenses and movement to keep the other from landing the jab. Seems like sparring to me.

50

Except that its ALL they are doing. They know that its coming. They know its not going to continue beyond that. They know ONLY a jab will be thrown.

Drill.

51

Originally posted by SifuAbel
[B]Except that its ALL they are doing. They know that its coming. They know its not going to continue beyond that. They know ONLY a jab will be thrown.

Drill. [/B]
So, by that reasoning when I am using only boxing, but not using my kicking, elbows, knees, takedowns or groundwork, I am only drilling?

52

Could you just call it a sparring drill? :stuck_out_tongue:

53

Knifefighter - that logical progression does not work.

54

I agree, It doesn’t work at all.

If you are free boxing thats one thing, if you are working a particular technique thats a drill.

55

As I said on page 3 of this thread, terminology is important. Without agreement on terms, the discussion will become more or less twisted.

Who cares what the dictionary definition of drilling or sparring is as long as you can agree on how they are defined? The point is not to argue definitions here, is it?

Here’s my two cents: if it’s prearranged, it’s drilling. If you cannot know what the other guy is gonna do and when he is gonna do it, it’s sparring.

But really, all that was not the point of this thread, right? Back to the issue at hand…:wink:

Cheers,

Mika

56

Originally posted by Mika
Here’s my two cents: if it’s prearranged, it’s drilling. If you cannot know what the other guy is gonna do and when he is gonna do it, it’s sparring.
Exactly.

57

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Exactly.
So, if you know he’s only gonna jab at you, how is that sparring? Because he doesn’t give you a timetable of how many seconds will lapse between jabs before you begin?

58

Originally posted by MasterKiller
So, if you know he’s only gonna jab at you, how is that sparring? Because he doesn’t give you a timetable of how many seconds will lapse between jabs before you begin?
Because you don’t know when is going to throw it, whether he is going to set it up with feints or broken rhythm, whether he is coming in low or high, whether he is going to single or double jab, etc., etc.

59

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Because you don’t know when is going to throw it, whether he is going to set it up with feints or broken rhythm, whether he is coming in low or high, whether he is going to single or double jab, etc., etc.

Bollocks. You’re contradicting yourself now. You just agreed that anything set up is a drill. If the drill is just jabbing, no matter how he sets it up, you know he’s only going to jab. If you don’t know what he’s going to do, that’s sparring.

Abel’s spot on here and you’re wrong KF. You’re not even sticking true to the definitions you’ve already agreed to.

Feints, broken rhythm, whatever, you know he;s going to end up only jabbing. That’s a drill.

60

Ok…

I guess serpent took that one.

:smiley:

The definition discussion has turned to the difference between the dynamic drills and the purely static drills. And the misconception that “traditional”(this term is getting rather small) players only do static drills. Not so.