traditional training and sparring

kf-

techniques you can’t use in sparring doesn’t render them “useless”, it just means they are not suitable for that type of interplay.

for instance, a cutting punch designed to rake and break an esophagus. THis tech can’t be used for obvious reasons.

In kungfu, there are a lot of techniques that you cannot fully practice with opponents and can only practice in form or on inanimates.

THe same as any other killing apps. like when training with a blade or bludgeoning weapon et al.

Now granted, there are some techniques in forms that even the teachers of those forms don’t get in some schools.

Anyway, just because you can’t use it in sparring doesn’t mean you can’t use it and doesn’t mean it is not worth keeping in the toolbox. Who knows when you’ll need to break that neck quietly :smiley:

cheers

Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]for instance, a cutting punch designed to rake and break an esophagus.

Who knows when you’ll need to break that neck quietly [/B]
Jesus… you are even more deluded than I thought you were.

As per the issue of certain strikes and techniques not being used in sparring because of risk.

First, striking. Punching to the throat or any other place is just that, a punch. A punch that is “fitted” to a particular need. Its just a different “spearhead”, its the same “shaft”. So in sparring, it doesn’t matter that you are fighting with a “blunted spear”. You can practice whats important; speed , power, accuracy and defense are still being sharpened. Once proper striking is gained, directing that strike to a particular area with a particular “spearhead” isn’t a big deal.

Second, form. The issue here is sparring without being taught proper form. Whether its one move or whole sets, its important to have proper form in your techniques. Inproper form is what makes techniques sloppy.

As per techniques not being useable. I tend to gravitate toward the burden being on the fighter not the technique. In an old marksman joke we see the issue.

“Its interesting to note how when somebody makes the mark he says he’s a good shot, but when he misses he says its a bad gun.”

I’ve seen this time and time again. Particular moves being called “bad” either because of stylistic bias, inabilty, or lack of knowledge as to usage and placement. I’m sure everyone can give examples of things in his own system that one can’t use. But to be honest, its more likely inabilty or a lack of understanding that is at fault.

As per the term “low/high percentage” this strikes me as not usefull. Sure everyone can throw a basic straight punch and front kick; as they should because basics are key to everyone. But, this term tends to be misused IMO since it leads some to beleive that you don’t need more than this. It places a judgement on techniques from a position of the novice. “I don’t THINK this technique can work because X.” When others are useing said technique everyday.

" Putting on gear lets you test under pressure without sending each other to the hospital. How can you expect to pull your techniques off under the pressure of a real fight- where your adrenaline dump causes you to lose between 30 to 70% of your learned motor skills- when you can’t even pull them off in sparring?"

I actually agree with this. My only caveat is that 30% to 70% is a huge flux and the whole point of sparring. To be able to meet confrontation. To most, the intitial confrontation even at the school level will initiate the adrenal response. The whole point is to get down to that 30 % level and below. When a person becomes confident under pressure in his basic speed , power and focus, that person will not have much of a problem directing his strikes and techniques. He will be able to use whatever “spearhead” he chooses.

Personally, after a few years of contact, my teacher would admonish me for using too much in sparring. Too much of the things I learned were coming out. It happens. I had to tune down and use less in order not to really injure someone. Because after a whille, you’ve been hit enough, fear subsides and you just let go and do what the body has been trained to do. “No mind” . Once there is no mind the body is free to flow and move as it chooses. Which is usaully better that when directed by the frontal lobe.

Great Post SifuAbel!

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

tank yooze :smiley:

kf-

the only one who is deluded is the one who cannot see the joke that is made.

don’t be such a doofus.:rolleyes:

I’m sure all your combat ring fighting is the only thing of any martial value…whatever. LOL, now that IS deluded. Man, your cup is so full, I don’t think you can get anymore tea in it.

abel, you made the point better than i did. kudos

Originally posted by SifuAbel

Second, form. The issue here is sparring without being taught proper form. Whether its one move or whole sets, its important to have proper form in your techniques. Inproper form is what makes techniques sloppy.

Can you not make the corrections while sparring? In MT, you will start sparring fairly soon, but you will have a coach making corrections as you go. Same thing in bjj. It’s not uncommon to start rolling in your second class. What happens? you get tooled. but you gain valuable experience at the same time. Then as you drill more, you will apply the corrections that you have been given, and in time, your experience becomes apparent to you - And you are that much further ahead of the guys who haven’t been sparring.

[b]As per techniques not being useable. I tend to gravitate toward the burden being on the fighter not the technique. In an old marksman joke we see the issue.

“Its interesting to note how when somebody makes the mark he says he’s a good shot, but when he misses he says its a bad gun.” [/b]

I tend to liken that joke to CMA people supporting a guy who has done several arts, one of which was king fu, and touting him as a good CMA if he wins a fight, but then when a CMA guy gets mauled, they say “but he didn’t have THE kung fu…”, but I digress.

I’ve seen this time and time again. Particular moves being called “bad” either because of stylistic bias, inabilty, or lack of knowledge as to usage and placement. I’m sure everyone can give examples of things in his own system that one can’t use. But to be honest, its more likely inabilty or a lack of understanding that is at fault.

I don’t rule them out as BAD techniques, but rather high/low %, which I’ll address below, since you touched on it.

As per the term “low/high percentage” this strikes me as not usefull. Sure everyone can throw a basic straight punch and front kick; as they should because basics are key to everyone. But, this term tends to be misused IMO since it leads some to beleive that you don’t need more than this. It places a judgement on techniques from a position of the novice. “I don’t THINK this technique can work because X.” When others are useing said technique everyday.

we don’t say anything not basic is low %. If it’s advanced and works the majority of the time for plenty of people, then it can be considered high %. When a person has their chin down, good head movement, and is active, how hard is it to punch them in the throat even once? Conversely how difficult is it for me to catch you with a jab or cross to the face? A kick to the groin vs a kick to the thigh?

I actually agree with this. My only caveat is that 30% to 70% is a huge flux and the whole point of sparring. To be able to meet confrontation. To most, the intitial confrontation even at the school level will initiate the adrenal response. The whole point is to get down to that 30 % level and below. When a person becomes confident under pressure in his basic speed , power and focus, that person will not have much of a problem directing his strikes and techniques. He will be able to use whatever “spearhead” he chooses.

Sounds good…

Because after a whille, you’ve been hit enough, fear subsides and you just let go and do what the body has been trained to do. “No mind” . Once there is no mind the body is free to flow and move as it chooses.

true.

"Can you not make the corrections while sparring?’

Sure, but you will also have to weed out a thousand bad habits. Plus, being corrected IS being taught form. Being taught the proper way to punch on a bag is also being taught form. You can’t escape it.

“I tend to liken that joke to CMA people supporting a guy who has done several arts, one of which was king fu, and touting him as a good CMA if he wins a fight, but then when a CMA guy gets mauled, they say “but he didn’t have THE kung fu…”, but I digress.”

:rolleyes: Yes, please, you digress.
The above has very little to do with my point. Jason Delucia is the only one you can make that comparison with. The other guys you’ve seen on clips don’t have any other examples to compare to. And you can’t blanket it because Onasis wins one fight and Delucia loses another. They are two different people. Even with his wins, I still say delucia isn’t that clean. If Onasis lost some I’d still say he has good kung fu. So this ponit of yours is flawed and a little old. Sour grapes, really.

“When a person has their chin down, good head movement, and is active, how hard is it to punch them in the throat even once?”

That easy, don’t do it then. Do it when its open. Why would I want to do something thats out of place and at the wrong time?

We should start a thread to identify what exactly is this nebulous percentage people keep talking about.

The only ones qualified to speak about what works in their own style are the people whom practice it. Otherwise, its just an outside opinion.

Originally posted by SifuAbel
:rolleyes: Yes, please, you digress.

Abel, I was quite impressed with your first post above… a well thought-out post without any personal put-downs. I had a feeling it couldn’t last though.

As far as sparring and when to do it vs. not to do it vs. the importance of having good form and technique before beginning sparring- these are some of the basic beliefs that separate “traditional” martial arts from progressive, modern ones.

“Conversely how difficult is it for me to catch you with a jab or cross to the face? A kick to the groin vs a kick to the thigh?”

There are no guarantees here either.

You still have to reach your opponent, get through his guard and make contact. All the while without being stopped by his defense or being countered and pummeled back.

Defense is defense, offense is offense. The guy with the chin down is defending the throat strike. The guy with a good guard and parry defends the punches. Both could land, neither could land; Its a numbers game.

You know as well as I do that the above IS as nice as I get.

When to do it?

After a little while. Its not years or anything. At least it shouldn’t be. I was sparring at 3 months. I sucked, obviously. Within time I didn’t suck. Then I got good. But at least at the end of those 3 months I had an idea at least of how to punch, kick, step correctly, how to hold a guard and how to fit strikes to certain areas. My dilema then was how to put all that together, which is the next step.

When not to do it?

Day 1. Why create bad habits that you have to break down later instead of at least teaching how to do the basics right first? How to step , how to punch , how to kick, etc. Whats so nebulous about that?

Being thrown into a ring on day 1 and getting beat up doesn’t teach anything but fear.

The only thing older than fighting is sex, and only by about 15 minutes.

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Being thrown into a ring on day 1 and getting beat up doesn’t teach anything but fear.
I believe a good teacher should be able to have students spar on day one while using the techniques they have learned that day with good form and without getting beat up.

thats more drilling than sparring.

Terminology is important. If touching hands - any which way - is called sparring, then I agree with KF. But since many understand sparring as something much more involved and free flowing than just partner drills, I would say that some time is needed before actual sparring.

I used to have a requirement (when I was teaching in the US) that the student have a yellow belt (first earned belt) before he or she could spar. Partner drills we did do from day 1, so I am not referring to them. When a student had a yellow belt and had practiced with me a few months, I would know enough about his personality so he or she wouldn’t just try to knock someone out immediately. Also, that way the student had proven he or she knew the names of the techniques and no class time would have to be wasted on explaining terms.
Knowing fundamental terminology also increases safety as all students are doing the same thing during warm-up drills.

Cheers :slight_smile:

//mika

Originally posted by SifuAbel
[B]“Conversely how difficult is it for me to catch you with a jab or cross to the face? A kick to the groin vs a kick to the thigh?”

There are no guarantees here either.

You still have to reach your opponent, get through his guard and make contact. All the while without being stopped by his defense or being countered and pummeled back.

Defense is defense, offense is offense. The guy with the chin down is defending the throat strike. The guy with a good guard and parry defends the punches. Both could land, neither could land; Its a numbers game. [/B]

No guarantees, but the target area is bigger.

Originally posted by SifuAbel

That easy, don’t do it then. Do it when its open. Why would I want to do something thats out of place and at the wrong time?

the point is that fighting stance 101 teaches us to keep our chin down. combined with head movement, the throat is a hard target to go for. I maintain that it’s low %.

It won’t stay that way forever.

I don’t obsess about it. If I can do it, I’ll do it; if I can’t, I won’t. Its that simple.

The head is a bigger target area but more mobile.

IF is the middle word in life. Variables are the only constant. The outcome of a fight is the sum total of the variables. Anything more is just speculation.

Originally posted by SifuAbel

:rolleyes: Yes, please, you digress.
The above has very little to do with my point. Jason Delucia is the only one you can make that comparison with. The other guys you’ve seen on clips don’t have any other examples to compare to. And you can’t blanket it because Onasis wins one fight and Delucia loses another. They are two different people. Even with his wins, I still say delucia isn’t that clean. If Onasis lost some I’d still say he has good kung fu. So this ponit of yours is flawed and a little old. Sour grapes, really.

As long as you’ve been on KFO, you should know better… It’s rather rare to see a clip posted that isn’t ripped apart by most posters - delucia, ng vs chan, the classic “dude, where’s my keys?” thread, some mantis clips, etc. There were even some mantis guys tearing apart fa_jing’s wc/jkd teacher, and a mantis sifu he was sparring with. bozteppe/cheung, etc.

And actually, delucia and O aren’t the only two. The same thing was said about the WC guy that competed - I think it was dave levicki (1-3). On other forums, I’ve seen comments about scott baker. Other CMA guys who have made an appearance in ufc include felix mitchell and thadeus luster.