I consider traditional training to be learning how not to be tense, how to flow, how to get good body positioning so that low stances can be used correctly, trapping so that you are not just lobbing out punches, breath control to maximize striking power and for health.
I’ve never seen any of the above used during sparring. So why spar?
I know the first paragraph seems kind of vague but I’m in a rush. So if you want elaborations then let me know.
Why spar?
I guess because it is a fair approximation of what a real fight is like and it is a good way to test your skills. All the other attributes you train are of no use if you cannot use them in a fight situation.
there are some people I know who spar without trying to learn the things I listed in the origional post. I’d be more worried about them not being able to fight than someone who doesn’t spar.
If you are given the opportunity to train your forms/sets/kata applications in a free-form environment at a lower intensity than a regular sparring session, then are allowed to step it up to the point of real sparring, then you’ll probably be able to apply your training in the sparring.
That is the second longest sentence I’ve ever written.
sparring is progressive in traditional as opposed to “get the hell in there” as in modern training. 
in traditional, you go slow and at the level you can handle. as you progress, you will reach the “get the hell in there level” but it is not thrust upon you with the immediacy that we find in many non-trad places.
sometimes this is interpreted as p.ussy by moderns, but, the injuries are considerably less and the skill grows just as well.
Now, having said that, the modern method works too, but it does discourage a lot of people because of the injuries. All you can hope for is that your coach is responsible and feels responsible for you and won’t stick you in there with a psycho. For the most part this is the case.
eiter way, if there ain’t no sparring, you ain’t learning no “martial” art, you is just learning a ritualistic dance pattern and frankly, you can get better training at juliard for that.
As much as I hate to say it, KL has taken the correct and paid it’s tuition to Clown College.
Re: Why spar?
Originally posted by joedoe
I guess because it is a fair approximation of what a real fight is like and it is a good way to test your skills. All the other attributes you train are of no use if you cannot use them in a fight situation.
Nope, No, No have to disagree…
Sparring is nothing like a real fight. Sparring is a training tool, much like a free form drill. It’s very important to spar because it brings into play a combination of strategy, tactics, conditioning, timing, and skill under some degree of pressure. But it doesn’t come near to the element of physical danger, adrenaline, fear, and raw survival instinct of a fight. Fights happen for a variety of reasons, but rarely are they a situation of two squared off combatants who agree to fight. More likely a fight is a situation where one or more combatants attack another with intent to truly harm them, most often with unskilled technique and brutal adrenaline laced power.
Mike
bad habits
Sparring develops bad habits and causes people to forget about what their system/style is really supposed to be about.
I disagree travelsbynight.
Sanda within your style teaches you how to use your style specifically. Sanda is sparring in kungfu and when the progressive approach is used, it is an extremely useful tool.
How could learning to use your martial art develop bad habits?
Kungfu is taught as a martial art first after all and though it does have transformative and healthful effects after longterm practice, it is Martial first.
If one was to only want to do the healthful and transformative aspects, then perhaps they should adapt all their stuff into qigong and present it as such.
cheers
Re: bad habits
Originally posted by travelsbyknight
Sparring develops bad habits and causes people to forget about what their system/style is really supposed to be about.
Quite the opposite. Sparring lets you weed out the b.s. techniques that you cannot use in a “real time” application against a resisting opponent.
KF is at it again…
No, it’s not like that. I do not know what TBK is thinking, but I can agree with him, just as I can agree with everyone else here so far.
It’s just that I think TBK is referring to something other than using a cross-stance in a fight or anything like that. I could be mistaken about what he means, but that’s at least what I mean. So, in that respect KF is right, San Da does weed out some of the moves that do not work in a ring. But then again, a street fight is not the same as a ring fight. But that’s OT at this point.
Every style has its own features and flavors which to the untrained eye may or may not seem different from one another. To the trained eye, they definitely are different. But that’s only if they actually are different. That’s what I am talking about (and maybe TBK, too). Many a San Da fighter fight San Da -like, not representing the flavor of their style. Many of them fight in much the same way. Sure, you could say that that is because those are the techniques that work. Okay, maybe, maybe…But it could also be because of the fact they weren’t taught to fight according to their system (or that they never learned it despite having been taught).
Example: in Choy Lee Fut, the double backfist combo is used a lot (tip for you guys fighting a CLF fighter…
). Some styles prefer going in on the outside, some styles go in in the middle.
Now, these characteristics are NOT inclusive to one style only. A lot depends on the size of the fighters and so many other things, too. And anyone can use them, of course. But a lot of times you cannot tell which style a given fighter represents. I have heard chinese Masters sigh at tournaments ("That is not XYZ style fighting) even if the fighter is doing OK.
This is not a comment on what should or should not be, just an observation.
Cheers 
Mika
I don’t agree with that either knife fighter
techniques that one person does not understand does not make them B.S or unusable.
With time and practice, one ca learn how to use all teh fighting techniques from in tehir style against resisting opponents.
With one or two exceptions of course, for example eye gouges, neck breaking techniques and others cannot fully be trained in a courteous atmosphere. You have to find other ways to train those forces and the techs that drive them.
The whoel point of “sparring” is the you want to recycle your partners so you can continue to learn. If yuou keep breaking people, you won’t be able to fully learn and they definitely won’t be able to learn
anyway, food for thought
cheers
Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]The whoel point of “sparring” is the you want to recycle your partners so you can continue to learn. If yuou keep breaking people, you won’t be able to fully learn and they definitely won’t be able to learn
[/B]
Good point Kung Lek, but man do I find your avatar strangely disturbing…
Mike
Re: Re: Why spar?
Originally posted by SiuHung
[B]
Nope, No, No have to disagree…
Sparring is nothing like a real fight. Sparring is a training tool, much like a free form drill. It’s very important to spar because it brings into play a combination of strategy, tactics, conditioning, timing, and skill under some degree of pressure. But it doesn’t come near to the element of physical danger, adrenaline, fear, and raw survival instinct of a fight. Fights happen for a variety of reasons, but rarely are they a situation of two squared off combatants who agree to fight. More likely a fight is a situation where one or more combatants attack another with intent to truly harm them, most often with unskilled technique and brutal adrenaline laced power.
Mike [/B]
Sparring is not a fight, but it’s the clsoest you will safely come to one. hard contact sparring teaches you several lessons that will indeed carry over into a real fight.
Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]
sometimes this is interpreted as p.ussy by moderns, but, the injuries are considerably less and the skill grows just as well.
Now, having said that, the modern method works too, but it does discourage a lot of people because of the injuries. [/b]
IME, injuries aren’t THAT frequent. Not frequent enough that anyone I know has been turned off from training.
Re: Re: Why spar?
Originally posted by SiuHung
[B]
Nope, No, No have to disagree…
Sparring is nothing like a real fight. Sparring is a training tool, much like a free form drill. It’s very important to spar because it brings into play a combination of strategy, tactics, conditioning, timing, and skill under some degree of pressure. But it doesn’t come near to the element of physical danger, adrenaline, fear, and raw survival instinct of a fight. Fights happen for a variety of reasons, but rarely are they a situation of two squared off combatants who agree to fight. More likely a fight is a situation where one or more combatants attack another with intent to truly harm them, most often with unskilled technique and brutal adrenaline laced power.
Mike [/B]
And that is why I said it is an approximation of a real fight. It introduces elements of a real fight situation while reducing the dangers. Obviously, the only way to experience a real fight is to get into one, but that is unrealistic for training purposes.
fighting
I think the fighting aspect of kung fu was meant to be learned by getting into real fights and then seeing what your strengths and weaknesses were. Also, when you learned new things you were supposed to test them on your own by fighting.
You can’t test anything by sparring with gear. Footwork maybe.
well, the kungfu school i went to we didn’t really use gear. Just a cup and a mouthguard.
at lower levels, the sparring was much more metered , like karate point fighting, but at advanced levels it was pretty full blast, have courtesy.
putting on gloves and head gear takes it up one notch further I think, but then hammering at each other as opposed to sparring is not teh purpose. I think a lot of people miss the boat on that.
But a lei tai match was were one would test his skills traditionally with teh kungfu. I don’t think there are any barehands lei tai matches anymore.
Here’s my take on sparring and fighting.
Real fights range anwhere from one hit, to grappling (stand up and ground), to boxing, and everything in between. To say that sparring isn’t like real fighting is not exactly corrrect. Some fights are like sparring but not all fights. Sparring helps but the fear of serious injury, and the ‘illegal’ techniques used to inflict injury, aren’t there. It all changes when someone is really trying to hurt you by any means.
I’m all for minimal protective equipment. The common arguement for padding is that you can go full blast and learn how to hit fast and hard. Most people train for only one speed, all ahead full. The drawback is that you get a false sense of blocking/taking a hit. In a real fight the shock of a hard strike will throw you off. On the other hand no protective equipment will cause you to hold back too much when attacking.
Remember yin/yang and balance you’re training. Full gear for attack training and light (or no) gear for defensive training. Getting hit tends to make you block/evade a little quicker next time.
Originally posted by Kung Lek
techniques that one person does not understand does not make them B.S or unusable.
Some techniques are b.s. for a variety of reasons. Some techniques will always be low percentage moves for almost everyone, but are taught as part of a system, anyway. Others will be low percentage for only some people, while others will be too advanced for a particular person to be using at a certain stage in his development. If techniques cannot be used in sparring the same as, or close to, the way they are taught in the system, then one of these things usually applies.
Originally posted by travelsbyknight
You can’t test anything by sparring with gear. Footwork maybe.
Putting on gear lets you test under pressure without sending each other to the hospital. How can you expect to pull your techniques off under the pressure of a real fight- where your adrenaline dump causes you to lose between 30 to 70% of your learned motor skills- when you can’t even pull them off in sparring? I don’t think anybody is under the impression that sparring is real fighting. It is just a laboratory for testing out your techniques, strategies, tactics, etc.