from the posts i’ve read it seems that almost everyone on this board uses weight training. does anyone here use the traditional ‘hard’ qigong [ie, muscle tendon change, iron buddha, iron body…the moving isometric exercises]forms in lieu of weight training? or is it just me? heh…
I do.
Every time I do bodyweight exercises (I don’t have any weights) I think to myself “Isn’t my hay gung and form isometrics enough? Don’t I have faith in the methods?”.
I think I’m focussing more because I have a lot of strength to catch up on after having persistent arm trouble affecting me for 2 years out of nearly 4 of training.
However, I’m not sure how this trad training prepares you for the activity involved in say a running battle. The fitness you need then is the fitness of a footballer (ie a “soccer” player"). 90 minutes of chasing the ball, switching directions and pace all the time.
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
david…
are you saying you can not attain this level [soccer player] of athleticism by kung fu alone?
if that is the case, i’ll have to disagree.
cardio and endurance can be attained by repeating forms and drills as well as lengthening the time
stances are held, etc. etc.
if that isn’t what you meant…please disregard above comment…
as for your faith in the methods. try addressing faith and honesty in yourself - are you really doing them as hard as you can? etc etc.
what forms of trad strength training do you do, by the way?
are we the only ones who do the traditional training???
No, you are not. 
“The essence of life is struggle, and it’s goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war.” - The Way and the Power
I do them both. the traditional training can’t give you the same size and raw strength gains as weight training.
those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya
seven star
why do you think that traditonal training won’t give you as much benefit as weight training?
I fractured my elbow in multiple places following a fall. The doctors did not see that I would have full mobility of my arm after that, but after 2 years of practising MA, I training as if my arms were never injured.
Don’t underestimate the power Trad training.
Neptune’sFall,
Whilst style training is hard work (by definition), there is a tendency to work sets, then one part of the body, then another, then another so your whole body is worked in stages and each bit gets some rest. In class, I may get out of breath occasionally but generally there’s an atmosphere of control.
Playing football (soccer) has you runnning around like a demon on fire non-stop.
I’m not saying training doesn’t prepare you. Well, I am actually… 
I’m a relatively good runner. I can run 2/5/10 miles cold after a month of pizzas and watching tv. Then I heard about fartlek running. Slow fast walk slow fast walk etc. When I do that I’m wiped out very quick.
It’s the fact of my recovery from injury that has set my mind working on understanding the mechanisms of strength and power. This has meant in increased interest in other methods of fitness and of the anatomy of sport and MA. I’m just a student…
When it comes down to it, my strength is increasing quite nicely again and in comparison with, say my flatmate who works out a lot, I’m strong. But he can swim a mile and I can’t and I can run and he can’t and he’s better at cycling than me but I can do more pressups, harder hits, better arm wrestling, longer lasting chi sao. There’s so much to the human body I wish I’d learned about this stuff at school…
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
because it won’t. not in terms of size and raw strength. I have a sihing that holds about an 8 minute horse stance, and has really strong legs, but he can’t squat nearly as much as me, and can’t kick as hard. He can do 100 pushups easy - I can only do about 50 nonstop. I bench press 282, and he’s not even close. He has more muscle endurance, but I have more strength.
Now, compared to endurance training, the results are probably similar, but for strength, weight training takes the cake.
those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya
"In class, I may get out of breath occasionally but generally there’s an atmosphere of control.
Playing football (soccer) has you runnning around like a demon on fire non-stop.
I’m not saying training doesn’t prepare you. Well, I am actually…"
I agree with this too, to an extent. in most classes I have seen, and when I was in jun fan and karate, we had those rest periods, it wasn’t constant work. When I played football and ran track, it was constant activity.
My muay thai class was constant activity - like a jack rabbit on crack - as is my NSL class, so I get good endurance training from it.
Many MA classes don’t get this focus on constant activity, because you have to watch the teacher demonstrate, or sit down while a group does forms, etc. Also, I know many MA that argue that “My style is meant to kill, and a real fight only lasts a few seconds, so I don’t need cardio training.” While fights do only last a few seconds, I still want to be in the best shape possible, as it has many advantages in training, competing and fighting.
those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya
7star, we don’t sit around watching each other but the nature of the training is such that after running around for a bit we’ll do a static exercise for a while which strains you in your muscles etc but not your lungs, so if you were out of breath, you are soon back in breath in time for any more “running around”
There’s more to kungfu than being strong…
The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey
"7star, we don’t sit around watching each other but the nature of the training is such that after
running around for a bit we’ll do a static exercise for a while which strains you in your muscles etc but not your lungs, so if you were out of breath, you are soon back in breath in time for
any more “running around” "
This is true. I was just giving one example. Either way, as we agree, things like soccer and track will involve a different level of cardiovascular intensity.
“There’s more to kungfu than being strong…”
No doubt. However, that’s not the issue I was addressing. He asked me why I thought you could get more raw strength and size increases from weight training than in kung fu.
those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction - dubya
hmmm
something that popped into my head this morning while i was working out…
the big factors in a fight (ie, survival) are not just size strength and endurance. they are important. i think the most deciding factor in a fight would be survival instinct, ability to take punishment, whatever you want to call it.
i think that no matter how big or how strong you are, if your enemy can take more than you, he will win.
where does that leave the traditional vs weight training discussion?
well…as i have not mastered any of the special training qigongs - iron body, etc. - i can’t really say. from all accounts, the special training qigongs improve strength and endurance as well as develop the amount of punishment you can take and raise it to almost incredible proportions.
which leads me to another question, for the weight trainers. how many of you have mastered the special qigongs, and which ones?
neptunesfall…totally disagree re: i think that no matter how big or how strong you are, if your enemy can take more than you, he will win.
Why? Because my traditional martial art does not teach to take more . It teaches how to be the ending force.
nospam.
nospam
i see what you are saying, but that isn’t the point i’m trying to make. as martial artists, we are all taught to be the ending force in a fight.
what i’m trying to say is that i’m tired and can’t think any more, so i’m going to sleep.
i’ll type more in the morning…the computers at my work have that new virus that’s infected about half of asia…so they’re all down! heh heh heh!
“for the weight trainers. how many of you have mastered the special qigongs, and which ones?”
That’s double-edged, bud… I can say “How many of the internalists can squat over 400 lbs and bench press amost 300?”
But that’s not the point at all. The original point was that weight training gives more raw power than traditional training. You can’t deny that. I train in a traditional style currently, so I know from experience. It will give you plenty of endurance, and strength - to a point. Weight training goes beyond that point.
“if your enemy can take more than you, he will win.”
Not really. If I fight someone who can take more than me and I break his leg, what’s he gonna do? If he can take punishment from my fists and is beating my tail, so I pick up a nearby brick and knock him out, what’s he gonna do? What you say holds true in the ring, but not necessarily in a street fight.
“You ain’t got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I’ll choke a ***** out wit his own gi” - Rass Kass
I practiced stone warrior daily for about a year, and i didn’t get as strong as i did from weight lifting for the same amount of time (i know there are other variables involved but still)
on the other hand, weight training won’t give you iron body.
you gotta find a happy medium. what do you want more?
i know what i want more. i want sleep. goodnight everyone
iron
I don’t do any traditional ‘external’ methods, because I’ve found they’ve been long outdated by modern methods.
On the other hand, I do plenty of traditional ‘internal’ methods. There simply aren’t any alternatives.
But it’s apples and oranges.
hmmm!!
“for the weight trainers. how many of you have mastered the special qigongs, and which ones?”
That’s double-edged, bud… I can say “How many of the internalists can squat over 400 lbs and bench press amost 300?”
i’m not sure. i’ve never tried.
maybe i can get to a gym this weekend as a guest and see what my max’s are. if i can, i’ll post them here.
what is the proper way to test a max, anyway?
should i test my max’s on freeweights or a machine? any input here would be helpful, so that i may do it correctly.
also, an advance “just for the record”…
my stats:
5’8"
143 lbs
my workout:
5 min sitting qigong
10 min standing qigong
14 min stances
30 min upper body moving isometric
(this is done in a half horse stance, so maybe it should count as stance training too? also, i am 90 days into the program, which is less than half. the program lasts 200 days)
30 min drills
10 min standing qigong
5 min sitting qigong
[This message was edited by neptunesfall on 09-21-01 at 06:41 AM.]
Test on free weights. your 1 rep max is the most you can do on your own without help from a spotter. be sure to have spotters when you attempt this.
Do you do any type of external workout?
“You ain’t got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I’ll choke a ***** out wit his own gi” - Rass Kass