“I think therefore I am” . Nothing confusing about this! To avoid further confusing thoughts, you should meditate more on this with the thinking hat on! Let me know when you finally realize that you are truly ar hat! =)
Moreover, lots of things one can develop in the game of sparring – that will work well within the confines of that game – are actually counterproductive to developing fighting skill. So, one can “win” the game but do so by having reinforced poor fighting traits.
Edmund wrote:
They are probably overshadowed somewhat by the number of stories where Ballet guys got beaten senseless.
**LOL! Anyone can fight; we’re born with that ability. Like any ability, some are naturally better at it than others. And like any natural ability, we can increase or improve that ability through proper application of training. One of the most significant factors in improving fighting ability is conditioning/shape. So when two unskilled people fight, it’s not surprising that someone in better shape (like a ballet dancer) wins.
Actually I have recently heard a few stories about Hong Kong WC guys getting beaten senseless in kickboxing matches. So the problem is not that WC guys aren’t fighting - They’ve been competing kinda regularly. They just aren’t winning!
**And that either comes down to the method is lacking or the training they are doing is lacking. IME it is the training that most WCK practitioners, like most TCMA practitioners, that comes up short. The have step 1, the forms, and step 2, the drills, but they don’t go on to the next step 3, fighting. And as all fighters have shown, you can only become a better fighter by fighting.
You guys are behind the times if you aren’t competing really.
**A person doesn’t need to “compete” to develop good skills; they need to train properly (steps 1-3). A huge part of the problem is that many in WCK think – and want to believe – that chi sao will develop certain fighting skills (so they are learning to fight without fighting). It doesn’t. It is a step on the road to developing those skills. Some WCK “master” (insert almost any of the big names) that has done tons of chi sao for 30 years but hasn’t fought regularly as part of his training, and is great at chi sao, will be easily beaten by a decent fighter because that “master” has never really developed any WCK skill, any fighting skill. He will look great at demos, great when “touching hands”, can talk a great game, but will eat the floor when he mixes it up with a moderately skilled fighter. That’s why none of these “masters” want to show themselves mixing it up; they instead want to show forms, drills, “touching hands”, etc.
**It’s actually very simple – if a person is interested in results, actually developing WCK fighting skills, they will focus on results. If a person is interested in something else, their focus will be on something else. All you need to do is look at their focus, and it tells you . . .
Regards,
Terence
I have been in well over 200 street fights here in Detroit and never lost, thank God I’m still ok. And without my tournament back ground in chi sao and full contact fighting I believe that I would not have had a good fighting record in the streets of Detroit or in a tournament. I have been competing since the age of ten, started in my Kenpo karate days.
What I’m saying is the more you compete, that’s any level of competition, the more you can handle the pressure on the streets. I’ve been there, done that, so I know it works. If I can do it, anybody can. I have plenty of full contact footage of me. I just don’t want too be the one too show and give proof on video all the time. And I’m sure there is someone out there who believes all of this stuff about tournaments is no good for growing fighters.
Then show us a VIDEO OF YOURSELF fighting full contact against a tournament fighter. Most of the ones that feel that way, are people that just cant get in one (tournaments) because of their age, wanting too rekindle their youth.
Ali Hamad Rahim.
“To fix in, you have too do or know ten times more than anyone else. And in most cases, it still isn’t enough. Being the man that you are, in most eyes you will never be complete. The world will not change for you on how people think, only you can change the world”.
My father. 1970.
Making a competitive game of chi sau is fine, if that is what you want to do. It can be a testing ground for ‘chi sau’ ability, It is when it is considered a representation of ‘fighting’ ability that I have a problem with. To me, chi sau is a means for developing some WC attributes (sensitivity, awareness, connection of handwork to footwork) and a chi sau competition can demonstrate these aspects, but I’m more interested in how these attributes relate to my fighting ability, so I would rather spar or participate in events of that nature.
Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I have been in well over 200 street fights here in Detroit and never lost, thank God I’m still ok. And without my tournament back ground in chi sao and full contact fighting I believe that I would not have had a good fighting record in the streets of Detroit or in a tournament. detroitwingchun.com
I don’t think anyone can argue that this kind of background would have made you less effective in the street. Definitely the more you fight for real the better. The only draw back is that any one of those fights could have gotten you killed as well. They say friends disappear but enemies accumulate. I know in Asia sooner or later someone gets their revenge if they lose. So it’s not to everyone’s tastes to go that route. For the ladies there aren’t that many that can get good by street fighting or going toe to toe with some 240 pound kickboxer. I think different training methods are possible but whatever the method there has to be some stress training that’s reasonable.
That’s life in Detroit I had too fight for my shoes, fight for my bag lunch and fight just to earn the right just to live on the street that I lived on. I didn’t ask for those fights, they just go down that way, almost everyday life for most. And then in my teenage years I did choose gang life, but that’s over now. Back then; to me it was a way of life.
Ali Hamad Rahim.
Of course for the most part dancers will get beat up because they are dancers and not fighters.
There hasn’t been a good definition about competing. It has been discussed by Terrence (I think) that competition isn’t necessary. Others have mentioned that tournaments also don’t help because Karate people and Taekwondo people also don’t do well in the Mixed Martial arts competitions. So that takes us to of cross training threads. The simplest thing is to train like the people you admire. If you admire the Thais then train like them. If you admire the BJJ then train like them. If you admire some particular Wing Chun guy the follow his advice and train like him.
People who fight for a living tend to keep in shape, hit the bag, spar and do all the things any fighter does. I think everyone is aware of that on this forum but we are just playing some games with each other because we don’t all have the same tastes. So those who like A will try to put down or at least argue with those who like B. Even though people choose not to agree with each other there still can be a useful transfer of knowledge in this way.
I think the best is to construct a stage in some city and just have people from all the various camps compete to see whose training method is the best. A fight to the death is best. No rules of any kind. That gets back to Bloodsport and trying to beat Claude Van Damme. Here’s the man: http://www.usadojo.com/biofrankdux.htm
Practically we should discuss good suggestions for the next step beyond chi sau which doesn’t involve trying to really injure each other by trying to take each other’s heads off in practice. For example Dan Anderson who was a Karate champion has written a book about how to spar in order to win in competition. See: American Freestyle Karate:
A Guide To Sparring at http://www.danandersonkarate.com/
Sifu Chung Kwok Chow from New York has a tape out on how to start freestyle sparring in Wing Chun. I would like to hear opinions on whether this step is helpful in training the average Wing Chun person to be a more realistic fighter or if there are better methods. Not that many people have documented a good step-by-step program.
I think those into realistic ring combat should really have their own forum to discuss this interest in depth and to report on the success or failure of their Wing Chun training methods against the people who really train to fight. It would be like having a forum for theoretical physicists and another for the experimentalists. Both are really very useful to have. It’s of no use to have theoretician’s, experimentalists and amateurs of either field debating about what is the most effective. I suspect the real ring fighters rarely have time nor are inclined to be writers about fighting theory. Rather they would consider this a waste of their valuable training time.
So I’ll start the bidding off with sifu Chung Kwok Chow’s tape. Other suggestions are Emin Boztepe’s tapes and Wai-Po Tan’s tape: Inspired by Wing Chun. Wai-Po Tang’s tape seems to be a blend of Wing Chun and boxing training procedures.
Originally posted by PaulH
Let me know when you finally realize that you are truly ar hat! =)
Am I truly ar hat or arhat or whoever? No brother or monk ever has more authority than that granted by other human being.
I experience change here and now! 
Originally posted by Edmund
[B]Actually I have recently heard a few stories about Hong Kong WC guys getting beaten senseless in kickboxing matches. So the problem is not that WC guys aren’t fighting - They’ve been competing kinda regularly. They just aren’t winning!
You guys are behind the times if you aren’t competing really.
[/B]
One of the senior students in the class competed in a kickboxing event a couple of years ago, he was only in the school maybe a year, and had no fighting experience, at that time he was only 16. Anyways it was in the intermediate division and suffices it to say he easily wiped the floor, especially with his first opponent. He would use only basic technique and entries to achieve this. The referee even accused him of being “To Aggressive”, he ending holding back a bit in the next fights because of the continuous warnings from the ref. He placed 1st in his division but the funniest thing was when the host of the event, a Martial Arts Instructor with one of the biggest schools in the city and coach of a few national Thai Boxing champs, came up to this novice to say “Is that all you can do”(chain punching) LOL. Since this time he hasn’t competed again but is willing to if the right event comes around. The art of WC is effective regardless if one is competing or not, IMO…
James
Originally posted by YongChun
I suspect the real ring fighters rarely have time nor are inclined to be writers about fighting theory. Rather they would consider this a waste of their valuable training time.
You’re pointing directly to the actual experience of Mike Tyson. The real ring fighters rock 
AHR wrote:
I have been in well over 200 street fights here in Detroit and never lost, thank God I’m still ok.
**Here we go . . . . But I’ll top you: I’ve had one thousand streetfights! What? Don’t belive me? Aren’t you impressed? You find unsubstantiated claims meaningless because anyone can make those claims? Trust me, it’s true.
And without my tournament back ground in chi sao and full contact fighting I believe that I would not have had a good fighting record in the streets of Detroit or in a tournament. I have been competing since the age of ten, started in my Kenpo karate days.
**Ah, you’re one of those karate-competitor-turned-WCK practitioners.
What I’m saying is the more you compete, that’s any level of competition, the more you can handle the pressure on the streets. I’ve been there, done that, so I know it works. If I can do it, anybody can.
**“Handle pressure”? So you think a chi sao competition is “pressure”? OK.
I have plenty of full contact footage of me. I just don’t want too be the one too show and give proof on video all the time.
**Full-contact karate?
And I’m sure there is someone out there who believes all of this stuff about tournaments is no good for growing fighters.
Then show us a VIDEO OF YOURSELF fighting full contact against a tournament fighter. Most of the ones that feel that way, are people that just cant get in one (tournaments) because of their age, wanting too rekindle their youth.
**As we all know, tournament karate fighters and chi sao competitors are highly skilled and deadly – that’s why folks that participate in them are prohibited from all NHB events (so that we don’t embarass those bjjists, mmaists, thai boxers, etc.). In fact, just the other day Royce was saying, “Man, I hope I never run into one of those chi sao champions on the street.” And Royler added, “Yeah, and some of those bad-@sses even do full contact karate!” A shiver went through the room.
Regards,
Terence
Boy, I wonder if the MMA/Grapplers out there diss their arts as much as Terence does. Terence please answer me this question, do you think all MMA/grapplers out there in all the arts, BJJ/GJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, Judo, etc etc..train hard, train to fight, train to survive, train to exhaustion? That has been your point all along hasn’t it? In your mind it is very frustrating to hear someone make a claim that hasn’t done the work, and from what I understand of your posts you believe all of us WC players are of this way. It is true that not all people that practice, learn WC are going to understand all of it or even be able to apply most of it, its all a matter of how important it is to them, but I will say that even if the practitioner gains a bit more self confidence in themselves and what they can or cannot do then some value has been given back to them through the art. I too dislike it when people mis-judge their own abilities and go out there boosting about what they can do and how good they are. When this happens then yeah I would want you to prove it too, but I do not believe most of us here are like that or making claims like this. And when one does prove it, how many more times does he/she have to keep on doing that, PROVING themselves. I believe over time one will become aware of their own strengths and weaknesses, and be truthful about it, because no matter who you are you do have both. Once that state of mind is achieved then you can begin to work on your weaknesses to make them strengths and become more effective, not only in MA but in life to.
James
Originally posted by sihing
[B]One of the senior students in the class competed in a kickboxing event a couple of years ago, he was only in the school maybe a year, and had no fighting experience, at that time he was only 16. Anyways it was in the intermediate division and suffices it to say he easily wiped the floor, especially with his first opponent. He would use only basic technique and entries to achieve this. The referee even accused him of being “To Aggressive”, he ending holding back a bit in the next fights because of the continuous warnings from the ref. He placed 1st in his division but the funniest thing was when the host of the event, a Martial Arts Instructor with one of the biggest schools in the city and coach of a few national Thai Boxing champs, came up to this novice to say “Is that all you can do”(chain punching) LOL. Since this time he hasn’t competed again but is willing to if the right event comes around. The art of WC is effective regardless if one is competing or not, IMO…
James [/B]
Send him to Hong Kong. They’d love to have him win one for them.
If you think you can chain punch your way to professional success in Muay Thai, I’d love to see it. Frankly I think it takes a bit more technique to be a pro Thai boxer though.
]Originally posted by t_niehoff
The have step 1, the forms, and step 2, the drills, but they don’t go on to the next step 3, fighting. And as all fighters have shown, you can only become a better fighter by fighting.
..
..
A person doesn’t need to “compete” to develop good skills; they need to train properly (steps 1-3).
I don’t think that’s why they lost.
The HK guys took the 3 steps. You think they just did drills before they went in the ring? They fought each other pretty good. But they all got KOed in the 1st round vs some kickboxers.
Quite simply WC had no technical answers for a lot of it.
Quite simply WC had no technical answers for a lot of it.
Not true WC has and had the technical answers. The trick is to figure them out before you fight not after. They should have spent their training time training against Thai boxers not other WC fighters.
Originally posted by hunt1
[B]Quite simply WC had no technical answers for a lot of it.
Not true WC has and had the technical answers. The trick is to figure them out before you fight not after. They should have spent their training time training against Thai boxers not other WC fighters. [/B]
But how in the hell are they meant to do that?
They don’t have access to Thai boxers. They train in HK in their own schools. They would not go to a Thai boxing school.
If they had trained with Thai boxers they would have realized what they were doing was simply the wrong way.
WC people just aren’t humble enough to admit that they aren’t good at everything and learn from other styles to improve themselves in the areas they are weak.
It’s not just a matter of fighting a lot. I feel they’ve got to actually learn some new techniques .
[[WC people just aren’t humble enough to admit that they aren’t good at everything and learn from other styles to improve themselves in the areas they are weak. ]]
another case of to much SLT not enough thigh kicks
how about getting thigh kicked while your doing SLT
that should solve the problem:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Ernie
[[
how about getting thigh kicked while your doing SLT
that should solve the problem:rolleyes:
In addition there should be someone behind you applying a neck choke while doing SLT to cover off on the BJJ stuff.
Ray
sihing wrote:
Boy, I wonder if the MMA/Grapplers out there diss their arts as much as Terence does.
**I’m not "diss"ing WCK, just how many people in WCK train. For example, how folks can become teachers, “masters”, etc. – how folks can even talk about someone being “good” – of a fighting method without ever having fought. How can we call someone a good boxer, good bjjists, etc. if they’ve never mixed it up? But it’s standard in WCK.
Terence please answer me this question, do you think all MMA/grapplers out there in all the arts, BJJ/GJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, Judo, etc etc..train hard, train to fight, train to survive, train to exhaustion? That has been your point all along hasn’t it?
**My point is simple: to become a better fighter through WCK or any fighting method requires that we actually fight as part of our training. That’s it. All fighters regardless of “style” or method do that. If someone isn’t doing that, they can’t develop or improve their fighting skills to any significant degree; they can’t “understand” WCK or become “skilled” at WCK without fighting (regardless of how long they’ve been in the art, whether they “completed the system”, what certificates they have, who they studied with, etc.).
In your mind it is very frustrating to hear someone make a claim that hasn’t done the work, and from what I understand of your posts you believe all of us WC players are of this way.
**Not “all” – I’ve met some, and some are here on this forum, that fight as part of their training. But IME it is a relatively small group. WCK, like most TCMAs, is marketed (via the myths associated with it) in such a way as to appeal to folks that don’t want to fight, that don’t want to train hard, etc. It is easy to recognize, however, who is fighting and who isn’t (the theoreticians) even on a forum like this simply by their perspective.
It is true that not all people that practice, learn WC are going to understand all of it or even be able to apply most of it, its all a matter of how important it is to them, but I will say that even if the practitioner gains a bit more self confidence in themselves and what they can or cannot do then some value has been given back to them through the art.
**Someone trying to be a better “swimmer” but without ever getting in the water may feel more confident or better about themselves but isn’t it a false confidence? Is confidence based on delusion a good thing in your mind? Wouldn’t they be better off just getting in the pool?
I too dislike it when people mis-judge their own abilities and go out there boosting about what they can do and how good they are. When this happens then yeah I would want you to prove it too, but I do not believe most of us here are like that or making claims like this.
**It goes beyond folks merely needing to back up “claims”. How can folks that never get in the water intelligently discuss swimming and training to be better swimmers? It’s all theory and conjecture.
And when one does prove it, how many more times does he/she have to keep on doing that, PROVING themselves. I believe over time one will become aware of their own strengths and weaknesses, and be truthful about it, because no matter who you are you do have both. Once that state of mind is achieved then you can begin to work on your weaknesses to make them strengths and become more effective, not only in MA but in life to.
**How can one genuinely know their strengths and weaknesses if they don’t fight (how can you be aware of your strengths and weaknesses in swimming if you don’t get in the water)? More conjecture, more theory, more BS. I wonder about someone who thinks they are learning important “life lessons” by training to become a better swimmer without getting in the water.
Regards,
Terence
Edmund wrote:
But how in the hell are they meant to do that?
They don’t have access to Thai boxers. They train in HK in their own schools. They would not go to a Thai boxing school.
**When I said “Step 3, fight” I don’t mean solely fight with other WCK practitioners – one absolutely needs to get the widest exposure possible, with the most skillful opponents possible. And they have MT in HK, and kyokushinkai, boxers, etc.
If they had trained with Thai boxers they would have realized what they were doing was simply the wrong way.
**That’s an excellent and important point.
WC people just aren’t humble enough to admit that they aren’t good at everything and learn from other styles to improve themselves in the areas they are weak.
**If one accepts that they can only become a more skillful fighter by fighting (other skillful fighters), and does that sort of training, they will be humble.
It’s not just a matter of fighting a lot. I feel they’ve got to actually learn some new techniques .
**Fighting will show you what you need, whether it is better or new technique, conditioning, attributes, etc. The HK guys should have learned a lesson from their encounter with the Thais; their fights showed them what they needed.
Regards,
Terence