Originally posted by MasterKiller
Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
But you can do more with a cigar than just smoke it.
MK was right with the Freudian cigar quote. People often get too carried away with trying to make a simple technique into something complex. A punch turns into a complex join-lock throw with a simultaneous dim mak death-point strike. :rolleyes:
Sometimes a punch is just a punch.
My gym teacher in Junior High would chew cigars. When he played golf, he’d put the cigar in his mouth and just bite down on it and chew. On the 9th hole he spit it out, put in another. Never smoked them.
web777,
To answer your question, it never goes too far. This is what learning is all about. Enjoy all that comes to you. The key is that you have to validate everything through trial and error.
Have tons of fun!
mickey
Originally posted by PHILBERT
My gym teacher in Junior High would chew cigars. When he played golf, he’d put the cigar in his mouth and just bite down on it and chew. On the 9th hole he spit it out, put in another. Never smoked them.
Strange. Was it like half eaten through at this point? Can you still get cancer from eating cigars?
yes
Nicely put cjurakpt. Maybe a bit wordy but…
In all seriousness, nicely put.
web777, I’m not sure how long you have been learning. If you look at the posts, it’s clear that people sometimes think only about what’s in front of them. In reality, it’s a 3 dimensional world though. The problem is trying to think about it to much. Keep training and don’t think so much. Now if I could only follow my own advice…
Kung fu is a wonderful path. Stay on it for a while and see what you can see.
LOL:D
The real problem with applications…
… is that a lot of people don’t bother ever applying them. Forms are important but you must also practice the applications first against a cooperative opponent and then gradually increasing resistance until it is a completely resisting opponent you are practicing with. Until then you haven’t really learned to apply anything at all.
Originally posted by red5angel
Sports fighters also acknoweldge across the board that you’re limited to the time you will be in your prime and able to compete at the best of you ability.
This applies to all hard physical activities icluding self-defense, street fighting, and “life and death” physical confrontations.
Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.
I admit, I said what I said at first about cigars to make everyone think Bill Clinton references, with the intention of responding saying there is more than just those 2 ways to enjoy a cigar.
Originally posted by PHILBERT
My gym teacher in Junior High would chew cigars. When he played golf, he’d put the cigar in his mouth and just bite down on it and chew. On the 9th hole he spit it out, put in another. Never smoked them.
LMAO !
Originally posted by Knifefighter
Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.
I think you are taking that analogy a bit far. In most cases, the alternate applications are the result of something as minute as a turn of the wrist or a slight change of force (or target). For a very simple example, a straight punch may be aimed at the face, but a slight turn of your body and some downward force on the punch would allow you to intercept a counter punch on the same side.
Right on Joe. Hooks can be used for hooking too. The point is, was it a bridge or just a punch? I’m not going to argue semantics with you. Forms is just a method of learning something. Not a training method. Applications come from experience and understanding. Experience and understand come from lot’s of places. Why limit yourself to one idea?
When I think about what forms are good for, other than the obvious, I always think about the traditional chinese belief of what is the qualification of a true master is.
A true master will be able to apply all of the training he has endured without deliberate concious thought, It will become first nature.
Training in forms, (dont get me wrong, acutally application is every bit as important as forms, its all part of the big picture) will highly improve your muscle memory, stabilizer muscles, and at the same time it will work your intire brain, due to the fact that you are continuously using both hemispheres through ambidextrious movement.
People can deny forms all that they want, it in no way degrades the training you recieve from them. You see, at the root and core of true gong fu, and attainment of actual mastership, hard work, dedication, belief, and most important of all, patients.
I in no way claim to be a master, I am a very, very long way from what I consider to be a master, which is not a highly appreciated consideration among many in this world. BUT, I have done my homework.
This is why there are so many applications to each movement, because the traditional martial arts are designed to create traditional masters, and a traditional master, in using true gong fu will be able to, adapt and use the application for the movement, or “form” he is in at that precise moment, that best suits the situation. And like stated above, application comes from experience and understanding. This is the link that completes the chain of training to actual application.
Originally posted by Knifefighter
Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.
Something about this quote got me so excited I almost kicked my mom in the face…
errr…
Ogoshi is a popular hip throw.
In execution it’s like a boxing hook, where the hips turn all the way through.
The shape (like in shadowboxing) would be similar; but I doubt the method would be the same; and the power is almost assuredly different.
On the other hand, the shape, method, and power match up for multiple techniques in certain forms.
Problems are whether or not you’re taught the method & power; whether you know how to use it once you get there; and whether you know which is the proper tool for the situation.
Originally each variation was a separate drill trained in the classroom. Drills came first, forms came last.
Trying to get drills & usage when just given forms is difficult and I imagine could fall into the category of your criticism.
Doing drills first, for use with fighting, and learning forms later to help remember them all would be similar to “shadow wrestling” all of the Judo shodan throws, with a good flow, so you could remember them in the absence of a regular class & sensei.
Don’t look at me though; coz at this point I prefer Muay Thai. LOL
Originally posted by BMore Banga
[B]
Doing drills first, for use with fighting, and learning forms later to help remember them all would be similar to “shadow wrestling” all of the Judo shodan throws, with a good flow, so you could remember them in the absence of a regular class & sensei.
[/B]
Is this different from any traditional martial arts training?
Originally posted by count
Is this different from any traditional martial arts training?
Well I was kinda trying to explain use and purpose.
A lot of people see traditional people learning forms and assume that they always reverse engineer the form to extract the fighting.
You and I both know that isn’t always the case.
Sometimes you may have to reverse engineer to extract the fighting; but that’s not really the ideal situation.
My point in posting a reply wasn’t to say that the inefficience is always the case; but to say that it could exist if conditions and training were less than ideal.
Ideally, you spend a good deal of time drilling the heck out of a particular section: like piquan in hsing yi, single palm change in bagua, ng lou choy in mantis, or gwa-sow-charp in choy lay fut.
You drill the striking parts on hitting stuff (like bags).
You drill the manipulation aspects (for lack of a better term) with a partner.
Sure the partner work is cooperative at first, but the goal is to work towards resistance; just takes a lil while to get there.
Even a good 2 person form isn’t always done ‘cooperatively’; in certain cases you should really try to nail the other guy and he should try to prevent it.
I think it’s important to have the right teacher, student base, and training situation in order to really go anywhere.
I also think it’s asking a lot of a student to extract fighting from forms; especially if the method & power are not clearly explained to put the shape in perspective (and narrow down the number of possible appz).
Not really trying to bash TCMA or sing it’s praises, just doing my best to explain it with my limited understanding.
The Thai crack is more of where I’m at in my struggle to find the right place for me.
A lot of people see traditional people learning forms and assume that they always reverse engineer the form to extract the fighting.
Most of the stylistic differences is not in how you punch and kick. Apunch is a punch, ect… The differences are in how use use them. You don’t extract the fighting from the form, you learn how the creator of the form strung punches, kicks, sweeps, ect to gether to fight effectivly. You don’t take the fighting from the form, you take the wisdom of how a great fighter used to fight from the form. You practice it, study it, then make it your own. You retain the knowledge of how it was taught to you so the message does not get lost, but you don’t try to use it in a fight that way 'cause that isn’t your fighting style. it is the style of the form’s creator.