I keep seeing people attack NHB fighting. What’s worse, I keep seeing people make statements like, “my art teaches real fighting, NHB is not real.” Coming from a classical martial arts background, and presently training with many guys who compete in NHB (no holds barred) events, I have to say that no NHB competitor will ever tell you that NHB events resemble a street fight. But, then again, what traiditional kwoons, dojos, and/or dojangs teach is not real street fighting either. NHB is simply a competition which is as close to real combat as possible. It is an event where with an exception of eye gouging and biting, a martial artist can test all his techniques. Instead of critiqueing the event and it’s competetors, you have to thank them. Thanks to NHB events martial artists realized that 90% of techniques taught in Kung Fu, karate, aikido, savate, TKD, etc. etc. simply will not work. These events also reinforced the importance of grappling. Lets face it, if your art doesn’t teach you to fight on the ground, you don’t know how to fight. Some of you may claim that UFC had been designed to promote grappling and/or bjj. No. It was designed to weed out techniques which do not work. All a martial arts master had to do was KO a bjj fighter. Many masters tried, all failed. I say, instead of putting the event down, step into the ring. See how long you would last before being taken to the ground and submitted. See if those deadly strikes are really all that deadly. Oh, and for those who say, “if only eye gouging was allowed, we would win,” wake up. You don’t want to grapple with a skilled bjj grappler in a setting where eye gouging is legal. Chances are, you’d be blinded quicker than he will. The funny thing is, all masters, and traditional martial artists who have stepped into a Vale Tudo or NHB ring, would agree. All artists who have faced a bjj fighter, will attest to their skill level. Others just sit back and talk.
MA fanatic
"Thanks to NHB events martial artists realized that 90% of techniques taught in Kung Fu, karate, aikido, savate, TKD, etc. etc. simply will not work. "
I will disagree on this point, I will have to say that NHB is showing that the training methods are not good.
I get out and grapple, I fight full contact, Ive been with Sambo guys, BJJ guys, Kickboxers.
I have changed my training methods due to these experiences. (A good asskicking is a great teacher)
Yes I got rid of some useless items, but that was a small percentage of what I have been taught.
But to all those critics I also say, get in the ring and find out.
Dark Night,
You made a good point I neglected to make. I believe it was Bruce Lee who said that, “martial arts should concentrate more on developing the individual, not focus only on developing technique.” Lee was one of the first people to cross train in the begining of what is now the Golden Age Of Martial Arts (we can now train in any system we prefer / world famouse masters come to out cities for seminars / we can learn from books and videos / we can train in styles from all over the world … in the past that was impossible / we can test our skills against other arts). Thanks to NHB events I realized how many myths existed in martial arts. I also realized the importance of grappling and the never ending depthness of grappling arts. I did test my skills against well rounded NHB fighters, and quickly learned what I don’t know. Yes, I took a beating, but now I’m a better martial artist as a result. Trully, I feel sorry for those who only critique and relly on fables told to them by masters instead of seeking the truth for themselves.
MA fanatic
Some people never learn.
"Thanks to NHB events martial artists realized that 90% of techniques taught in Kung Fu, karate, aikido, savate, TKD, etc. etc. simply will not work. "
Gee, with unsubstantiated statements like that is it any wonder why there is a growing chorus of critics aimed at NHB?:rolleyes:
Bodukan:
Why would you think that my statements are unsubstantiated? Since NHB competitions have gained popularity in 1993, this is what we have seen happen in the NHB ring. We saw kung fu fighters from Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut, and various animal systems, get clubbered (some found their limbs proken by basic arm bars, heel hooks, and knee bars). We have seen traditional karate stylists (some world famouse) lose to kickboxers and grapplers. We have seen ninjitsu and penkak silat guys not be able to avoid a take down making attempts to stay on their feet by using exotic manuevers which failed miserably. We have seen a kyoshu jitsu expert choked with a basic BJJ choke. We have seen TKD (with its kicks), and Kenpo (with its fancy hand strike combinations) experts be destroyed by basic muay thai kickboxing techniques. Funny thing, the traditional stylists who did well, are those who originally lost, cross trained in kick boxing and grappling, and returned back to fight in an NHB arena. Bodukan, do you really think that shotokan front stances, classical blocks, traiditional footwork, and its rigit strikes could keep a fighter up at least 3 minutes in an NHB arena? NHB fighters are often put down because they scare traditionalists, causing masters to evaluate their system’s effectiveness against cross trained apponents.
MA fanatic
MA fanatic,
First off, I would have to say I agree with you in many respects that NBH or rather UFC (the first ones at least) in particular opened the eyes of many (if not most) martial artist. It made people at least take a second look at what they were doing in their own training, i.e. for individuals who were training to fight or even for self-defense.
As we both know, the NHB type format is still bound by rules. But, imho it will give you a pretty good indication of what may or may not work.
Although I am not a BJJ practitioner (although I’ve thought of taking some lessons for the ground aspects), I can appreciate the great value in what’s taught. However, I feel even BJJ has it’s ‘weaknesses’ such as striking and takedowns/throws. But even with this, imho BJJ “revolutionized” fighting.
Finally I wanted to point you to an article I just recently read on the Gracie Brazilian Jiu Jitsu website: http://bjj.org/editorials/970824-bjjweak/ . I found it pretty interesting.
Loke
Loke,
I don’t disagree with you at all. BJJ has many weaknesses. I have been saying that in my posts. But, I have to say that the article you sent me a link to is not very factual. I don’t want to get into a long history of the careers of fighters mentioned in the article. The problem is, that guy basis his thesis on a few fights we saw in America. Even Valed Ismael he talks about at legnth (though a classical bjj fighter), is a force to wreckon with in Brazil and has indeed defeated artists from other styles. He lost in Japan (one fight) and America (one fight on points). The fighters he lost to have trained in BJJ as well. The author also points out that Luta Livre guys are more prepared for NHB because of their training without a ‘gi.’ Perhaps so, but in clashes between Luta Livre and BJJ schools in Brazil, BJJ have been victorious. Rickson alone had defeated the top Luta Livre fighter Hugo Duarte twice (once on a beach, and once in a challenge match when Luta Livre guys came to his school). If we trully start breaking down all NHB competitions, BJJ guys, or fighters who cross trained in BJJ did dominate. As for BJJ traditional competitions, yes they are far away from NHB. Most BJJ guys decide which event they want to train for. There were fighters like Mario Sperry, Bustamante, etc. who have trained for both equally as hard and have been world ranked in both arenas. Is BJJ perfect? Of course not. But, what art is. I have a Kung Fu and Hapkido background. A few years ago I transitioned into Muay Thai and BJJ. Have also studied under some guys who train in shooto (shooto guys favor submissions over positions so wanted to see what they do as apose to what we are taught in bjj). I just think everyone should grapple, even if they have a different art they make their own.
MA fanatic
Re: To Critics of NHB fighting
Originally posted by MA fanatic
I have to say that no NHB competitor will ever tell you that NHB events resemble a street fight.
I’d have to disagree with that statement. I’ve had my share of street fights over the years, both with weapons and against multiple opponents, and my opinion is that an NHB match has many things in common with a street fight. My experience has also been that most street fights are much easier.
What the NHB world is missing is concealed weapons ;).
The only problem I have with NHB is that it endangers the fighters in the real world, removing some of their ability to defend themselves (as in from themselves and the law). Many of those I’ve encountered are extremely, shall I say… agressive. I fear they may wind up in a bad situation due to their abilities and lack of spiritual/personal development.
I am a NHB fighter. (ie I fight in NHB type competitions) But I still consider myself a TRADIONALIST. I did NOT jump on the BJJ/ GRAPPLING Bandwagon I was already on it. I think the NHB scene opened pples eyes on HOW the trained and areas they may have neglected but I don’t think it showed that the techinques in Tradional arts didn’t work it showed that there methods of training were flawed. What I saw in the early UFCs were guys who may have been king of the point fighting ring getting walloped because the found they were out of their element. My first experience with BJJ (back in 94) was when a coworker asked me to go to his school. He knew I was a good MA and had a rep as a scrapper. I went and was challenged(a ‘friendly’ one) so the could show me the weakness in my arts. (The funny thing is they never ASKED what arts I studied) I wallop three guys before the stopped and realized that I wasn’t going to be taken down as easy as they thought. They asked how I trained and counter many of ther techniques I said they were in the cirriculum of my various arts. I had studied Japanese Jujutsu and judo so the ‘grappling’ thing was no surprise and I expected it whe I heard it was Brazilian Jujutsu. Many arts have the tools to deal with a good variety of situations if you take the time to learn and apply. I am not trying to bash BJJ I actually love playing with BJJers the point is that if you know your art and more importantly know YOURSELF, toss in some real fight experince and NHB is not scarey at all. I like NHB I like the fight I like the training. I don’t think NHB is a bad thing just realize what it is at this point. A sport and a fun one at that.
“I don’t think it showed that the techinques in Tradional arts didn’t work it showed that there methods of training were flawed.”
This has been what I say all the time. I didnt really start learning until I got slapped around a couple of times.
Experience is the best teacher, one way to make your fighting abilities to jump is to find someone better than you who likes full contact. And find people who fight different.
It is important to note, I am not promoting bjj. BJJ has its weaknesses as any other art does. Grapplers have been superior because they train like they fight and fight like they train. A student can’t fake his way through a grappling class because he would be tapped, thrown, squeezed and/or choked out. Everyone gives their all during the frequent training session. Grapplers train to take down stand up fighters, while stand up fighters don’t train to defend against grappling takedowns. Grapplers train in standup, while some traiditional standup artists still pretent that they cannot be taken to the mat. Most standup fighters panic on the ground and tap way before they are in any danger. If anything, NHB proved that if you don’t know how to grapple you don’t know how to fight. The best thing about NHB, is that it cuts through all the myths. NHB fighters don’t pretend to believe stories of ancient masters. They know what they know, and where they are weak. I wish I could say the same thing for some (not all) traditionalists. Oh, another important note, grappling arts like BJJ, Pankration, Judo, Sambo, Shooto, etc. are traditional arts with a rich history teaching self defense, discipline and spiritual development.
MA fanatic
Excellent points
Good points, too bad they will never be adressed and understood.
Choke:
Aren’t you a MMA competitor. I heard you’re a great fighter. Forgive me if I’m confusing you with someone else. The reason some (not all) traditionalists wont understand NHB, is because they refuse to “empty” their proverbial “cup” as Bruce Lee said. I am sure that one NHB match will quickly show a fighter his weaknesses. That is something aclaimed masters who have been trained for years refuse to do. Many will fool themselves and their students making statements like:
“My style is only designed to fight to the death.”
“If I true shoalin fighter enter the NHB arena, he would be deadly.”
“If they only didn’t have the eye gouging and biting rule.”
“I can beat them, but have nothing to prove.”
“I don’t want to make Gracie’s rich.”
“NHB is just for kids who like agression, martial arts are for peace and tranquility of the mind.”
Truth is, if you lose to an NHB fighter, chances are, with eye gouging rules, you’ll be the one being eye gouged (I wouldn’t want to fight a skilled NHB fighter or some grappler who is allowed to eye gouge me…he’ll manipulate my body in every way just so he could poke my eyes out). Also, in the NHB arena, guys have made attempts to eye gouge. In no situation did that dirty maneuver inhibit the other fighter from finishing the fight.
Truth is: no one had seen this mythical shoalin monk this century. Were they deadly? Maybe. But, where are they? Ninjas were also deadly, but they’re gone. The few guys I see practicing ninjitsu now would lose royaly in NHB (I think some actually have). It’s a golden age of martial arts, chances are if monks existed, they’d be training at the Lions Den or the Gracie Academy to pick up some ground grappling skills.
Truth is: if one can beat a well trained NHB fighter, he/she would. I understand that some masters, instructors and school owners just want to concentrate on teaching. Fine. We need more good teachers than good fighters anyway in this day and age. But, don’t say that you could beat some NHB fighters. If you say it, back it up. Unfortunately, it’s all talk. Only a few have stepped in the ring to test their art and their skill.
Truth is: NHB is not for agressive kids. As a matter of fact, most accomplished NHB fighters are in their mid 30s. Pretty much all of them own gyms and train full time. They also conduct seminars, work at taking kids off the streets through training, and some even condition future athletes. These are not punks who want to rumble. These are skilled athletes (some of Olympic and/or International calliber) and high ranking martial arts masters (masters of sambo, bjj, judo, pankration, etc.).
Truth is: NHB does not make the Gracie’s rich. lol
Does a martial artists have to fight in NHB to be a good martial artist? NO. I just saw a martial arts special about a MA master who runs a school in one of the poorer neighborhoods of NY. He hardly makes any money, but it is because of him that many kids survived gang violence, didn’t join a gang, stayed off drugs, and gone onto college. That guy would most likely lose in an NHB arena, but look at the change he has made. Should he fight? NO WAY. What he is doing is much more important. But, he also doesn’t make claims that he could beat the ‘silly kids’ who engage in No Rules competitions. He doesn’t claim to have the skills to wipe the floor with all the fighters. Regardless of his fight record, he is a true master.
MA fanatic
“Some of you may claim that UFC had been designed to promote grappling and/or bjj. No. It was designed to weed out techniques which do not work.”
No, it was designed to sell tickets and make money.
It was designed for masters to display their skills. Those who could did. Sure, UFC promoters do make money. But, all martial arts teachers make money. All tournament sponsors make money. All Kung Fu masters selling their videos make money. What does money have to do with what we saw as far as techniques utilized?
MA fanatic
The few guys I see practicing ninjitsu now would lose royaly in NHB (I think some actually have).
I would disagree. But then again you’ve never seen me train! I practice ninpo as well ( I would like to focus exclusively on the koppo arts but… ) I have beaten many pple here on the NHB/jujutsu scene. I may not be big time yet but maybe someday…
And all while holding a beer may I add!
Asia:
Which competitions have you been in? What state? What were the rules or was it pure Vale Tudo? Which school were your apponents from? What styles were they from? I keep a close look on the NHB scene and haven’t heard of anyone from pure Ninjitsu system winning. Congratulations. If you can win some major events against worthy apponents, you could put classical arts back on the map. Go for it.
MA fanatic
Originally posted by Asia
My first experience with BJJ (back in 94) was when a coworker asked me to go to his school.
Asia:
I am curious as to which school this was, since there were only a couple of BJJ instructors outside of Brazil at this time>