I hear ya Clyde. What I’m asking about is throws vs. takedowns. If you want to stick with wrestling terminology, Fireman Carry’s and Suplex’s vs. Doubles and Singles.
If people start focusing more on these types of tech’s (not to mention high impact throws from other arts) will we see more KO’s from throws? Will we get a third type of MMA’er? The clinch fighter? Someone who has the basics of submission fighting down, but focuses more on defense and position on the ground. When standing, he will rush in to force the clinch (and thus negate the striker) and go for a high velocity throw. Now, sprawling is not as important because you may well get rushed chest to chest. Game changes again.
What do you think?
Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.
One of my biggest problems is facing the front suplex. Chest to chest throw and sprawling don’t mean squat.
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
Newton could propably have broken the falls with his hands but he chose to keep the choke on (i think most people would have that was TIGHT).
I must agree that submissions are the #1 way to win a MMA bout, it just seems scary because a striekr can see 10 openings land hard strikes in them all and the guy can still be standing (in bad shape of course) then the same guy sees maybe one opening for a submission and wins the match.
I always feel sorry for a guy that’s been striking the hell out of an opponent being a really dominant fighter and then loose because he had a glimpse of carelessness and got caught in a choke/lock.
I believe one of Ryu’s heros (Kimura) was known for his extremely powerful, high impact throws. If not him, I am sure Ryu can give us some names of a few Judoka. Anyway, they often ended up ko’ing or disabling an opponent. Obviously, throws that take your opponent straight back have high impact potential. Also, any throw that allows you to drop your full weight onto your opponent at impact would be right up there, too. I loved doing a good tai-otoshi and landing chest to chest on a guy - squish. O soto gari can be a brain buster too. However, lack of clothing can really limit ones arsenal of throws. Takedowns, like the double-leg, can be good. Especially if you get in deep, and get good elevation before scooping the legs. This is a good way to get that KO from the head smacking the mat. But I think this kind of fighter may have to be too specialized, and possibly too one dimensional for MMA. But as you pointed out, if they had good defense, it is possible.
Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.
Well, hopefully I’ll find out. Right now, I’m working a lot of Shuai Chiao that’s beginning to be influenced heavily by Greco-Roman and believe it or not, Southern Mantis. I’ll be back on the mat in January with a Caique purple rep, so we’ll see. I’m just looking for peoples opinion on the mix right now.
Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.
In the case of Newton and Hughes, I haven’t seen the fight but IMO, whoever is standing at the end of the fight is the winner, even if he is almost unconscious! What does it matter that Newton got the triangle on if in the process he got his a$$ knocked out? But I dunno what Hughes’ condition was immediately after the fight. If they were both pretty much out, then perhaps it should be declared no winner by way of Double KO (just like in old school Streetfighter 2 and Mortal Kombat, LOL) Then there should be a rematch. I think throws can be hella effective if you apply them correctly. Anyone ever see Frank Shamrock vs Zinoviev?? Good lord! Perhaps fighters should start exploring and applying devastating throws more. This would be a much more entertaining and impressive strategy for free style wrestlers as opposed to the stupid friggin ground n pound. Perhaps this possibility may also benefit prospective MMA competitors from a san shou background as well.
“The UFC spawned a new breed of “mixed martial artists.” World-class wrestlers learned to kickbox. Champion kickboxers learned to grapple. (The karate experts learned to stay home.)”
If they learned to throw thai style knees while in, it might make for an interesting “clinch fighter,”
JWT, for chest to chest suplex, hips back and away. Post your head on his shoulder, and one hand or both hands on his hip(s). He CANNOT THROW YOU IF HE CAN’T HIP IN. This buys you time for the next bit of magic.
I’m going to assume he has double underhooks. Overhook hard on both sides, near the elbow, but above it. If you haven’t already got your hands on his hips put them there. Now, lock your hands together, and squeeze in with your arms/elbows to relieve his grip on your body. Try to bring his elbows together if you can. Pummel for inside control with one of your arms, and use that to continue creating space until you are out of danger.
More fighters in mixed martial arts have been using throws as a means of doing damage lately: Hayato Sakurai and Jermaine Andre are two examples. Shamrock beat Zinoviev with a slam, Tito beat Tanner with a slam (or an (un)interntional headbutt, depending on who you ask). Mixed martial arts is still evolving - I think it’s great how the sport continues to add dimensions.
Merryprankster,
I have a friend that likes to throw people when he’s got them overhooked like you described. It’s like a chest to chest suplex, but it’s more of a fall and twist so that he ends up on top of them. Sometimes he pretends to set himself up to be bearhugged so he can get the overhook position and throw.
This topic is why I encourage CMA guys to do SAN SHOU…many SAN SHOU scoring is done by ELEVATION TAKEDOWNs…imagine picking up someone and slamming them on the CEMENT/STREET/WOOD FLOOR…RIP!!! 2nd degree folks…SAN SHOU guys are excellent throwers by the way!
I guess that all those guys just couldn’t handle a throw, everyone knows you just have to slap the ground as you land and you’re good to go.
“Americans don’t have the courage to come here,” Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, ‘To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.’ Patton
The throw you described is a salto. The counter is to step forward as they are arching their back and turning for the throw and thrust your hips forward and down, driving your knees to the mat. You usually either wind up in mount, or with him directly underneath you.
Salto is a wicked throw and requires a great back arch!
I completely agree about San Shou! If there were a San Shou place in my area, I’d go if they had day classes!
Tito Ortiz KOs Evan Tanner in less than a minute with a throw.
Silva dislocates Sakuraba’s shoulder with a throw.
Hughes KOs Newton with a throw.
These are just the fights that have ended with a throw in the last 12 months!
Also, MixedMartialArts.com is reporting that the Nevada commission upheld the decision by John McCarthy to stop the fight and award the win to Hughes. Rematch is coming soon…maybe January.
One must toughen up without losing one’s tenderness.
MP, that is the throw that I, by far, use the most. It’s what got me doing the back bridge every single night. But it’s a great throw. There’s one guy in our school in particular that just out strikes me every times we go at it. One, he’s bigger and stronger, and two, he’s got more experience than me. And he also seems to just have allot more natural talent. After I get tired of playing punching bag I give up and throw. I pour the Salt on and it works just about every time.
I’ll work on your suplex defense but now I don’t have a partner that can do it as well. But I’ll drag somebody out there.
And while I’m on it, I would, once again, like to ask if anyone has any wrestling/grappling experience and lives in Austin, TX I am still very much looking for someone to roll every week or so.
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
I would like to add that it has been quite some months now since I rolled with anyone of any skill level and I’m starting to really suck. So one, you’d doing me a favor, and two, you’d likely to get to repeadetly submit someone over and over again. WHAT FUN FOR YOU!
Really, I suck bad. Come on over and beat the hell out of me. I’ll be at Brian Duffy’s Kenpo Karate every Saturday morning. Come before 11 or after 1, I’m teaching then.
(Is this getting humiliating yet?)
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
Sarcasm from me, MerryPrankster? The ground slapping technique has worked for me everytime, even against a DDT. That, along with pressure points/Dim Mak and some good chi development I haven’t lost any fight I’ve had in the last 3 months.
“Americans don’t have the courage to come here,” Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, ‘To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.’ Patton
unless you really really really train a few throws with weights and forms so that you can always get the throw it will be hard to do against a wrestler…unless of course you hit them first.
Of course, I wouldn’t trade shuai chiao for any other art. Personally I think Shuai Chiao, Hsing I and mantis hand speed and hand changes make for the best streetfighting combo.. I would say wing chun, but mantis is about grabbing and so it shuai chiao, so It makes for a good combo. Eagle claw would work with shuai chiao too. Very cool stuff.
If you get tossed like Sak did on concrete, you don’t just dislocate your shoulder, you go to the ER with a busted clavicle and a concussion as side orders.
That is why there is no such thing as NHB. Nobody fights NHB. There sre rules for sports and no rules in reality.
Think about what you are training for. Think about who you are. Think about what you are realitically capable of physcologically and
physically. Then stop thinking and do.
