This thread is way too good to be kept on the internal martial arts forum...

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121

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1046787]I think we established they are just going to make people flinch. They simply didn’t know how to describe the flinch response, that’s all.

We’ve got it all straightened out now.[/QUOTE]
I think you are close with that, Dale. It seems that he was leading him. In NLP you mirror the person in order to get a rapport with him. A test is to do a shift, meaning you do a different move, and he will follow your lead. Then you have a link. I believe that is akin to what is going on in the first video.

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This is the awkward nature of this thread.

I am 100% positive on the skills of Dale Dugas, and then we see some questionable videos by Painter and then it gets all very confusing.

That said Dale has said in the past that he would not train with someone who was a fake, so perhaps MysteroiusPower and the like should give Dr. Painter the benefit of the doubt.

I will be the first one to say that a lot of his videos out there including the one-touch KO stuff to look fishy as hell but, we all know… there is legitimate skill, there are marketing ploys, and the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

123

[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1046765]Kumar wrote a lot of qi hugging stuff and is pushing it to the max these days to make a living. He is doing it mostly because he is too old and crippled to be taken seriously as a fighter now. BUT back then he was a fighter and from what I hear a big d-bag to people like you. You would make a qi claim and he would kick your a$$. He was a big, rough, mofo who studied other styles before settling into the internal mumbo gumbo. He was an a$$ kicker because that is who he was not due to walking around in circles. The issue with him is more of a time period issue. The tournaments he fought in had contestants that did not train contact the way modern mma does. How would he have faired today? That would be an interesting topic.[/QUOTE]

Truly, there is nothing you won’t pretend to know. A dubious and mysterious power indeed.

I shall refrain from further comment, and pray for all our sakes that somehow you will do the same.

124

In the case of how this is often portrayed in videos, it’s malarky in my opinion.

In the case where the students go wild, it’s hypnotism (which is also a connection) for the most part.

The thing is, when you do it with the same people all the time..well. Everybody learns their part.

Is there energy all around us? Yes.

Do we use it? Yes again.

Can we cultivate it within ourselves to become robust? Yes.

Can we use that robustness to generate particular dynamics in our relationship with others? Yes.

Can we conform others to particular behaviours that we control?
Happens all the time.

Can you “throw force” out of the mechanics of your body without touching something/someone and without using any device? Minimal, you could put a candle out perhaps or the like.

Strength through cultivation, stamina through cultivation and technique through practice are way better paths in my opinion.

Although refined energetics is interesting and has something of merit to it, I don’t know about combatives, except in acts of deception. Although, feinting or having a good enough understanding of structure to be able to use minor amounts of force to achieve large amounts of damage is tied to this too.

But the “healing touch”, in a very real sense such as massage, chiro and other forms of energy work and body work really do a lot of good.

125

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1046833]
But the “healing touch”, in a very real sense such as massage, chiro and other forms of energy work and body work really do a lot of good.[/QUOTE]

Hey…What is it about people who do Reiki, that they have to work it into the conversation within a minute of meeting them?
“..Oh, and did I tell you? I’m also a Reki Master.”

126

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1046744]Funny how there is zero evidence of any of these so called MA “masters” ever effortlessly manipulating a combat athlete who trains and competes in the sport model.

This is just a much hokum as the other cr@p.[/QUOTE]

Those are hardly the same and it’s a disservice to lump them together.

In one case we’re talking about a comparison of physical skill. It’s something that IF the “master” and the “combat athlete” met up there’d be a winner and no supernatural powers need be invoked.

But this is something completely different, it’s a denial of science and an invocation of the paranormal/supernatural. That’s the part that raises my hackles.

EO

127

Well Mysteriouspower,

Interesting irony with the screename you chose if you are such a skeptic about energy, yet you villify Dale. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

At any rate, so you RE-read his advert and now you have your “second wind”.

The guy is inviting you and your other sycophant to attend..AND FREE at that. And he’s willing to demonstrate ON YOU!

Surely, someone so monomaniacal(look it up) would be jumping at the chance, right?

You’ve got nothing to lose Laddie!!

128

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1046641]This is the thread where it was discussed in 2004:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-28415.html

Painter eventually posted an apology and took them down, but I can’t find that thread.[/QUOTE]

Thought I remembered that episode lol, that particular thread seems to be missing but there are a few other old threads on here about it. Didn’t he blame it on someone else being in charge of the website and him having no control over it?

Someone brought up Kumar, I don’t think that’s a valid comparison, although both are involved in teaching chi kung and do make some big claims Kumar travelled to the East and sort out the best teachers both internal and external he could find, his lineage is out there for all to see and is well documented and his teachers well known and respected.

He also spent time in Chinese medical facilities learning their healing methods so no one can question his knowledge and lineage in regards to healing.

In addition he was known as a fighter who wasn’t afraid to mix it up with anyone (up until his car accident that is) and believed in sparring and fighting and saw the internals as a valid fighting method IF one could put the hours a day he felt was necessary to make them work, it seems in this day and age he doesn’t feel people can put forth this effort so teaches them as a health system which he charges the earth to learn (but it’s a free country no one is forced to go to him).

His list of teachers when it comes to having a fighting back ground is also impressive so again his lineage is open for all to see. And I don’t see him selling his seminars with outlandish claims like some.

And I think he was originally brought up because he mentioned magnetic hands in his book, he in regard to one person he touched hands with (a direct descendent of the Yang family) but he never claimed to be able to teach it or understand it just that it happened to him, and yes the way he talks about the internals and their power can be a bit off putting, but he also tries to demystify the teaching and explain them in western terms

129

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1046870]Well Mysteriouspower,

Interesting irony with the screename you chose if you are such a skeptic about energy, yet you villify Dale. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

At any rate, so you RE-read his advert and now you have your “second wind”.

The guy is inviting you and your other sycophant to attend..AND FREE at that. And he’s willing to demonstrate ON YOU!

Surely, someone so monomaniacal(look it up) would be jumping at the chance, right?

You’ve got nothing to lose Laddie!![/QUOTE]

Laterthannever,
Interesting irony that your name is Laterthannever and you end up posting for the first time for this thread on the 9th page. Actually it is not irony.

I do no need to go all the way to Boston to get “shown” that magnetic hands works. I can tell you right now that no one can control anyone without touching them. Use your brain and think critically for a second. People who fall for this will end up being controlled like all those yahoos on YouTube that just fall over when touched. Buying snake wine will do as much good as drinking herbal tea with honey.

If I ended up there I would be sarcastic and non-compliant. Dale and John Painter combined would not be able to manipulate me from a distance. I am willing to bet you a $300. Likley we would all end up brawling and no matter who won that it still would not prove that someone can be controlled from a distance.

130

It seems people have assumed much when it comes to what is going to be presented here in Boston on December 17th, 2010.

I have invited the doubting thomas’ in the group to my school to personally witness these skills.

These skills have nothing to do with what is being bandied about. No where in the ad or the workshop will people be practicing anything that involves NOT touching people. All who attend will be learning all manner of ways to deal with people while in direct contact with them.

As mentioned before, the person who started this thread is braying long and loud, but will not come see for themselves what is being presented.

MP,

You can come be as sarcastic and non-compliant as you wish. You will still be placed on the floor, up against walls, and handled with ease. And I will do it softly and with whole body connection and whole body power. I can do this to you with one arm, two arms, and no arms though much to your chagrin, I will be contact with you using my body.

My door is always open, gentlemen.

My question to everyone, is why is it that unknown posters have the privilege to slander and libel people who are open and upfront about what they do, where they teach, and have a very public persona on the internet, yet I and my teacher are under attack without said unknown people being known?

I can backup everything I say and do.

It is rather simple.

Seems people would rather slander and libel people than come see themselves be educated to other material.

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Only $300??

Better up the ante son! So noone can control you from a distance eh?

I normally don’t assume gender w/ someone with whom I’ve never met..but lets just say I DID for a sec.

I’ll assume you’re male. I’ll also assume you’re heterosexual.

If a really STUNNING looking woman with curves in all the right places walked in front of you wearing little more than a reall skimpy bikini..

I’ll be 300 MILLION that you, my friend would definitely be “controlled from a distance”..

And yeah..she doesn’t have to put a HAND ON YOU!! :rolleyes:

And you’ve been CONTROLLED all along by your response to this thread. Look at how much of an internal representation it elicited in you to begin with.

And look at how it CONTINUES to manipulate you?!

132

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1046924]It seems people have assumed much when it comes to what is going to be presented here in Boston on December 17th, 2010.

I have invited the doubting thomas’ in the group to my school to personally witness these skills.

These skills have nothing to do with what is being bandied about. No where in the ad or the workshop will people be practicing anything that involves NOT touching people. All who attend will be learning all manner of ways to deal with people while in direct contact with them.

As mentioned before, the person who started this thread is braying long and loud, but will not come see for themselves what is being presented.

MP,

You can come be as sarcastic and non-compliant as you wish. You will still be placed on the floor, up against walls, and handled with ease. And I will do it softly and with whole body connection and whole body power.

My door is always open, gentlemen.

My question to you is why is it that unknown posters have the privilege to slander and libel people who are open and upfront about what they do, where they teach, and have a very public persona on the net.

I can backup everything I say and do.[/QUOTE]

Dale-

I personally attribute it to a couple of factors.

  1. This forum is notoriously un-moderated for the most part and so, there’s a lot of dents in the armor of it.

  2. There is an insistence about reality coming from a small camp of people who cannot grasp different things and only choose to cherry pick the absurd and place that in front of everything to the detriment of all.

  3. armchair ufc opinions are all the rage and you get a lot of people who cannot see past that visceral type of activity and cannot make a connection with other aspects particularly in regards to Asian martial arts which have a whole lot of other seemingly unrelated to fighting material in their curricula.

I do believe these belligerent and posturing folks who cannot back themselves up and choose to be like little babies and poke tigers in cages with sticks to see if they will roar.

I’d still rather be the tiger than the stupid baby with a stick.

Be the tiger. :smiley:

133

funny that the two people who are braying the loudest want to talk about sparring.

Sparring has rules, pads, and IMHO teaches bad habits as one gets used to having protective gear on.

You will not have rules, pads, etc on the street. And one should be able to fight without said gear.

People should hit things with unwrapped hands to see what its like. Many of these young people think they will be punching someone in the head with an ungloved hand and will come out unscathed.

Hate to say it but have seen many fights as a bouncer and EMT, that ended with someone breaking their hand on a head.

That is why I wrote my Iron Palm for MMA article for Kung Fu Magazine a while back, to get people to think about hand conditioning so they do not have to glove up at all.

134

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1046924]It seems people have assumed much when it comes to what is going to be presented here in Boston on December 17th, 2010.

I have invited the doubting thomas’ in the group to my school to personally witness these skills.

These skills have nothing to do with what is being bandied about. No where in the ad or the workshop will people be practicing anything that involves NOT touching people. All who attend will be learning all manner of ways to deal with people while in direct contact with them.

As mentioned before, the person who started this thread is braying long and loud, but will not come see for themselves what is being presented.

MP,

You can come be as sarcastic and non-compliant as you wish. You will still be placed on the floor, up against walls, and handled with ease. And I will do it softly and with whole body connection and whole body power. I can do this to you with one arm, two arms, and no arms though much to your chagrin, I will be contact with you using my body.

My door is always open, gentlemen.

My question to everyone, is why is it that unknown posters have the privilege to slander and libel people who are open and upfront about what they do, where they teach, and have a very public persona on the internet, yet I and my teacher are under attack without said unknown people being known?

I can backup everything I say and do.

It is rather simple.

Seems people would rather slander and libel people than come see themselves be educated to other material.[/QUOTE]

Dale,

One thing I can say for certain is for as long as I have been posting here you have always maintained this outlook of an open door policy to what you do and who you are, and you have always invited doubters to come train with you and see for themselves. If more posters on here were like that and less “anonoymous” this place would be more productive and there would be a lot less stupid flame wars.

135

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1046734]People (and styles) that do tons of demos with complying partners and have zero evidence of them (or their students) doing full contact against resisting opponents generally DON’T have skills.

If anyone should know this, it is you.[/QUOTE]

I can’t argue with you on that.

136

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1046924]It seems people have assumed much when it comes to what is going to be presented here in Boston on December 17th, 2010.

I have invited the doubting thomas’ in the group to my school to personally witness these skills.

These skills have nothing to do with what is being bandied about. No where in the ad or the workshop will people be practicing anything that involves NOT touching people. All who attend will be learning all manner of ways to deal with people while in direct contact with them.

As mentioned before, the person who started this thread is braying long and loud, but will not come see for themselves what is being presented.

MP,

You can come be as sarcastic and non-compliant as you wish. You will still be placed on the floor, up against walls, and handled with ease. And I will do it softly and with whole body connection and whole body power. I can do this to you with one arm, two arms, and no arms though much to your chagrin, I will be contact with you using my body.

My door is always open, gentlemen.

My question to everyone, is why is it that unknown posters have the privilege to slander and libel people who are open and upfront about what they do, where they teach, and have a very public persona on the internet, yet I and my teacher are under attack without said unknown people being known?

I can backup everything I say and do.

It is rather simple.

Seems people would rather slander and libel people than come see themselves be educated to other material.[/QUOTE]

Your question is ridiculous. Why are anonymous posters allowed to slander people are open and up front? It is not slandering. We are discussing. You are at the negative end of things and are looking badly for it. Unfortunately that is what happens when you put yourself out there. This is the reason most kung fu people will not put up a video of them sparring. They are not in their comfort zone and will look bad. People will comment and talk badly about kung fu and many of these people have a living to make and a reputation to keep. I am not judging them for it but this is probably closer to the truth than the whole “Keeping it behind closed doors” excuse.

This is America. We are allowed to do these things here. This is not Communist China where the government can ban youtube or socialistic Europe/Canada where people have to work within one system(healthcare). Actually in a few years we will be similar to Europe in the healthcare respect but still the best goddarn country ever.

You want the moderators to get rid of what you do not like. Why do you get to choose? If I had a choice I would have the moderators get rid of all this qi hugging nonsense that permeates kung fu and only keep threads about technique, sparring, training, etc. The esoteric stuff would be cut as well. Do you see why moderators cannot just cut out what you do not like? Because everyone on here dislikes someone else’s posts or certain subjects and the moderators would go crazy. And they are working for free. Do not put up questionable seminar ads unless you want to open yourself up or get over it.

137

I have nothing to do with Sifu Painter.
Dale and I are friends, yes, but that is the extent of any relationship I have with ANYONE in Jiulong Bagua.
I have only seen clips of Sifu Painter and they are all demos so I can’t comment on what the man can’t or can do.
I will say this:
Manipulating people via anatomical control and even “mind control” is nothing new in the MA, we who have been around the blocks have all seen this.
You can call it hypnosis, kiai-jutsu or whatever, it is all the same thing, the power of suggestion and it is a VALID method of self defense IN CONJUNCTION with a practical one.
Those no touch and light touch ko’s, like the many others demoed over the years are simply “faints” based on that “power” or striking the area like the vagus never ( ST9) or other neurological shut down points, or typically a combination of both.

I think that we have to be weary of throwing the term “fraud” around.

If I tell someone that I can make them unconcious without hitting them AT ALL and that it will be painless and they won’t feel any discomfort and that I can wake them up and they will be just fine, some would question that.
Then I apply a RNC and all is clear.
Does that make me a fraud?

138

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1046930]funny that the two people who are braying the loudest want to talk about sparring.

Sparring has rules, pads, and IMHO teaches bad habits as one gets used to having protective gear on.

You will not have rules, pads, etc on the street. And one should be able to fight without said gear.

People should hit things with unwrapped hands to see what its like. Many of these young people think they will be punching someone in the head with an ungloved hand and will come out unscathed.

Hate to say it but have seen many fights as a bouncer and EMT, that ended with someone breaking their hand on a head.

That is why I wrote my Iron Palm for MMA article for Kung Fu Magazine a while back, to get people to think about hand conditioning so they do not have to glove up at all.[/QUOTE]

You did not just bring out the too deadly to spar argument did you? Oh my god. Kung fu is not too deadly to spar. Kung fu is too uncoordinated from years of unrealistic training methods to use sparring effectively as a training method. The fact that this argument is still used is sad.

Sparring, like all training methods, help to develop attributes that COULD be helpful in a real fight. The reality is that real muggings happen with more than one person attacking you and likely they have weapons. NOTHING can prepare you for defending yourself against multiple attacks who have weapons and you are alone. Not sparring, and especially not forms and iron palm and qi gong. Sparring will prepare you mentally much better than the latter three methods I just mentioned.

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mysterious power
Im really sick of this back and forth stuff, you make assumptions and have drawn a conclusion that is incomplete.

Dale is willing to prove you wrong and you wont accept it? Then you ned to shut up and stop posting until you at least have a better understanding.

If you challenge someone and he accepts but you dont want to take the time to drive there then your all talk and cant be taken seriously, we call that a p u s sy

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1046940]I have nothing to do with Sifu Painter.
Dale and I are friends, yes, but that is the extent of any relationship I have with ANYONE in Jiulong Bagua.
I have only seen clips of Sifu Painter and they are all demos so I can’t comment on what the man can’t or can do.
I will say this:
Manipulating people via anatomical control and even “mind control” is nothing new in the MA, we who have been around the blocks have all seen this.
You can call it hypnosis, kiai-jutsu or whatever, it is all the same thing, the power of suggestion and it is a VALID method of self defense IN CONJUNCTION with a practical one.
Those no touch and light touch ko’s, like the many others demoed over the years are simply “faints” based on that “power” or striking the area like the vagus never ( ST9) or other neurological shut down points, or typically a combination of both.

I think that we have to be weary of throwing the term “fraud” around.

If I tell someone that I can make them unconcious without hitting them AT ALL and that it will be painless and they won’t feel any discomfort and that I can wake them up and they will be just fine, some would question that.
Then I apply a RNC and all is clear.
Does that make me a fraud?[/QUOTE]

I chalk this up to abilities that SOME people can instinctively do. For example I believe that somewhere somehow sometime there was a person that could levitate sorta. But it is suspect when this person claims to be able to teach something he can do naturally. And then when they tell you it can help in self defense…run.