Thinking outside the box

[sihing]

@Ultimatewingchun

Did you say run away???

You… …Who didn’t have the balls to come to Cleveland…who backed out of it once he realized what his big mouth was getting him into? :eek:

Cut the bull5hit…will you please?

You’re kidding nobody.

So now your calling me a coward because you and a Phil were at the event? LoL. Maybe I guess in your mind it would have been better for me to show up and we have it out, that sure would have made the event a success now wouldn’t it. You are such a hypocrite, you have no idea what you even portray yourself as. Hey Vic, by the way where are these video’s you were supposed to show all of us here that shows your real Wing Chun technique and all, haven’t gotten around to them yet? You were bragging for a month about them and what they would show us all about you and your fighting prowess? LOL. What is the funnest thing though is people here think YOU are a authority on TWC, LMAO. If I recall at your level 10 test you tested the lowest out of the three of you that tested with a 67% mark, not very good for a guy that had a total of 14 yrs of WC experience behind him at that point in time. Since that test wasn’t much of anything in regards to acutally testing one’s ability to demonstrate skill in TWC, you should have scored much higher but even your teacher could see what you where worth, and he marked you accordingly.

James

[sihing]

@anerlich

No, Tony, I don’t. But surely your contacts at the VT Museum will.

Failing that, I’m sure a resourceful boy such as you could find GM Cheung’s website and contact details.

Cheung’s site has been down for a couple of days now…

[sihing]

@Ultimatewingchun

"Victor:
I think that from time to time you make very good points in your post. You have trained the way you do because you feel that that is the best way for YOU to train right? Well this is the best way for ME to train. I never discredit anything that you say, but where I draw the line is when people (not just you) start to say that our system is incomplete because they are cross-training.

Why can’t you say that you LIKE to cross-train because you are interested in other MA’s. There’s nothing wrong with that. I like to study and practice other MA as well but only to learn and grow as a MAist. BUT I do NOT train in other martial arts because WC is incomplete. How can I make such an argument when I haven’t learned all there is to learn in this system? There is nobody out there (asside from MAYBE a handful of people) that can say that they have totally mastered WC. There is always something new to learn, practice, perfect, sharpen, and train." (Airdrawndagger)

***LET me throw that back at you, ADD. But before doing so, I’ll say this: you’re certainly entitled to your beliefs, especially since you’re seemingly honest about the fact that you have a psychological investment of a sort in maintaining your faith that wing chun has all the answers to combat. There are many people who won’t admit even that much.

However, getting back to your post that I’ve quoted above: I’m not saying that wing chun is incomplete because I’m crosstraining. And I’m not saying that I crosstrain because “I’m interested” in other martial arts. I’m saying that I’ve been doing wing chun for 30 YEARS…and I’m crosstraining only within the last 5-6-7 years or so - PRECISELY BECAUSE I’VE FOUND WING CHUN TO BE INCOMPLETE. So I gave the system a serious look for about 25 years before coming to the final conclusion that there will be times when:

A) You WILL be forced to grapple because going to the ground was unavoidable, or because in the standup aspect of the fight the other guy forced the fight to a standing clinch.

B) You WILL have to use longer range footwork, striking, and kicking moves that aren’t normally associated with wing chun - because you will need the mobility that up-on-your-toes footwork provides, and because you will need the longer range striking and kicking that arts like boxing and kickboxing provide (as a means to bridge the gap, make hits, open up lines, and get close enough to certain quality fighters to form a bridge - so that you can start using the wing chun close quarter game with success).

And we’re supposed to take your word for it? Maybe Cheung should appoint another representative to this forum, as it is obvious you are not doing a good job, instilling so much faith in the TWC, LOL.

James

[Flash]

If Vic has been training for 25 years in Wing Chun not just TWC and finds it incomplete then you have to believe that it is true. The way to truly find out how incomplete a system is invite skilled MMA to your school to better your Wing Chun, I am not skilled in Wing Chun the style I chose is JKD a mixture of many styles and still there can be found weak area’s. The only people that argue that Wing Chun is complete are those that have never experienced a choke hold or arm bar or a skillled boxer these people rely on what their sifu says without any proof. Wing Chun is a old art, fighting has changed over the years refined so to speak. The more weapons in your arsenal the more dangerous you are if you have the guts to use them. I like the saying (some have a plan before a fight till they get their teeth knocked out. So all you closed minded never fought other skilled fighters KEEP IT REAL.

[anerlich]

Cheung’s site has been down for a couple of days now…

It’s a holiday weekend in some Australian states, maybe that has something to do with it.

In any case, the page will probably be cached on Google, so Tony shouldn’t have to wait to solve the nagging question …

[sihing]

@Flash

If Vic has been training for 25 years in Wing Chun not just TWC and finds it incomplete then you have to believe that it is true. The way to truly find out how incomplete a system is invite skilled MMA to your school to better your Wing Chun, I am not skilled in Wing Chun the style I chose is JKD a mixture of many styles and still there can be found weak area’s. The only people that argue that Wing Chun is complete are those that have never experienced a choke hold or arm bar or a skillled boxer these people rely on what their sifu says without any proof. Wing Chun is a old art, fighting has changed over the years refined so to speak. The more weapons in your arsenal the more dangerous you are if you have the guts to use them. I like the saying (some have a plan before a fight till they get their teeth knocked out. So all you closed minded never fought other skilled fighters KEEP IT REAL.

WHo ever you are, you have no idea, lol. So I am supposed to believe someone on a Internet forum more so than my own Sifu who has more experience teaching and fighting? Someone who I have witnessed live, and years later to realize that no improvement has happened? LOL. I’ve had my own experience to attest to WC effectiveness over the last 16+yrs, never mind my fellow students and Sifu to verify the effectiveness. Also after 13 yrs of teaching experience and meeting a multitude of Martial Artist from varying styles and systems coming into the kwoon to “Check things out”, I know what I know for a reason. So please, go back to school Flash, and do us all a favor and keep out of things you no nothing about.

James

[anerlich]

Maybe Cheung should appoint another representative to this forum

As perhaps should Lewadny, I guess.

LOL @ forum “representatives”. What IS this world coming to …

Andrew Nerlich, proud forum NON-representative for Combat Centres Australia, and Renegade Combat Systems.

[sihing]

@anerlich

As perhaps should Lewadny, I guess.

LOL @ forum “representatives”. What IS this world coming to …

Andrew Nerlich, proud forum NON-representative for Combat Centres Australia, and Renegade Combat Systems.

Come on Andrew, I would have expected more from you than this, coming to the rescue of your fellow TWC/Crosstraining companion. LoL. You losing your touch or something?

James

[anerlich]

I would have expected more from you than this

And this would affect me how?

[sihing]

@anerlich

As perhaps should Lewadny, I guess.

LOL @ forum “representatives”. What IS this world coming to …

Andrew Nerlich, proud forum NON-representative for Combat Centres Australia, and Renegade Combat Systems.

And this would affect me how?

As usual Andrew, you always stick your rear into things that don’t concern you…

[Ultimatewingchun]

James:

I’m going to waste my time answering your bull5hit once again..because I just can’t allow your disinformation campaign to gain an audience unopposed…as your JEALOUSY towards me, and Phil, and Anerlich, and anybody else from TWC that comes on here and, due to their posts, have more credibility than you - that jealousy never seems to burn itself out.

So in point of fact…when I took the Level 10 Instructor Grade (Gold Sash) test in 1990…EVERYBODY knew that to score a 70% or above with Willam Cheung was like a baseball player hitting .300

…that is, it was a high mark of excellence. 60% was the passing grade (and still is)…and very few people scored 70% or above in those days (today it’s different - as William Cheung has relaxed his standards considerably - and people score 70% or above regularly). I scored a 72% on the Provisional Master Level 3 test that I took with him a few years ago.

All this said, I scored 69.5% on the test that day back in 1990, Mike Kraushaar scored 68%, and Rhonda Bolding scored 72%.

Now if you go back to the video and watch (AND LISTEN REAL CAREFULLY) when he announces the scores after the test - you’ll notice that he started to say 70 something percent when he called my name…AND THEN CAUGHT HIMSELF and said 69.5%.

I found out later on that he didn’t want Mike Kraushaar to feel badly - AS I HAD DEVASTED the guy during cross arm chi sao at random (that part of the test that is a replica of the way Bruce Lee fought Bob Wall in ENTER THE DRAGON…if you recall the starting position of that fight). By giving both myself and Rhonda a score of 70% or above - it would have been a negative reflection on Mike - who he felt a bit sorry for).

(Blaine Collins, the dai-sihing of the entire TWC organization in North America at that time, was mad as hell at me, btw, for the beating I gave Kraushaar during that part of the test - as was GM Cheung - I found out later).

…

As for my being appointed by William Cheung to represent him on this forum - nothing could be further from the truth. I came on this forum on my own about 2.5 years ago only after Phil Redmond called me up and told me about it. (This, btw, is another indication of how YOU think…ie.- you’re jealous of the “idea” that somehow I got to represent TWC and you didn’t).

And as for the reasons why you didn’t come to Cleveland - those are pretty self evident to MANY people around here - not just me. (I received some pm’s and emails about it, in fact).

And for a guy who refuses to back up virtually anything he says - you sure know how to do a lot of talking, James.

And my promised videos with my boxing-experienced student, Rich Alvarado, have not been filmed AS OF YET because Rich has been unable to come to class for quite some time now - due to his mother’s illness.

But those videos will be coming.

Enough said for now.

[canglong]

In any case, the page will probably be cached on Google, so Tony shouldn’t have to wait to solve the nagging question …
Andrew,
As you eluded too earlier my resourcefulness enabled me to email GM Cheung before the website went down. The holiday may delay his reply.
originally posted by flash
If Vic has been training for 25 years in Wing Chun not just TWC and finds it incomplete then you have to believe that it is true.

originally posted by flash
The only people that argue that Wing Chun is complete are those that have never experienced a choke hold or arm bar or a skillled boxer these people rely on what their sifu says without any proof.
So flash these two statements appear to be incongruent.

[sihing]

@Ultimatewingchun

James:

I’m going to waste my time answering your bull5hit once again..because I just can’t allow your disinformation campaign to gain an audience unopposed…as your JEALOUSY towards me, and Phil, and Anerlich, and anybody else from TWC that comes on here and, due to their posts, have more credibility than you - that jealousy never seems to burn itself out.

So in point of fact…when I took the Level 10 Instructor Grade (Gold Sash) test in 1990…EVERYBODY knew that to score a 70% or above with Willam Cheung was like a baseball player hitting .300

…that is, it was a high mark of excellence. 60% was the passing grade (and still is)…and very few people scored 70% or above in those days (today it’s different - as William Cheung has relaxed his standards considerably - and people score 70% or above regularly). I scored a 72% on the Provisional Master Level 3 test that I took with him a few years ago.

All this said, I scored 69.5% on the test that day back in 1990, Mike Kraushaar scored 68%, and Rhonda Bolding scored 72%.

Now if you go back to the video and watch (AND LISTEN REAL CAREFULLY) when he announces the scores after the test - you’ll notice that he started to say 70 something percent when he called my name…AND THEN CAUGHT HIMSELF and said 69.5%.

I found out later on that he didn’t want Mike Kraushaar to feel badly - AS I HAD DEVASTED the guy during cross arm chi sao at random (that part of the test that is a replica of the way Bruce Lee fought Bob Wall in ENTER THE DRAGON…if you recall the starting position of that fight). By giving both myself and Rhonda a score of 70% or above - it would have been a negative reflection on Mike - who he felt a bit sorry for).

(Blaine Collins, the dai-sihing of the entire TWC organization in North America at that time, was mad as hell at me, btw, for the beating I gave Kraushaar during that part of the test - as was GM Cheung - I found out later).

…

As for my being appointed by William Cheung to represent him on this forum - nothing could be further from the truth. I came on this forum on my own about 2.5 years ago only after Phil Redmond called me up and told me about it. (This, btw, is another indication of how YOU think…ie.- you’re jealous of the “idea” that somehow I got to represent TWC and you didn’t).

And as for the reasons why you didn’t come to Cleveland - those are pretty self evident to MANY people around here - not just me. (I received some pm’s and emails about it, in fact).

And for a guy who refuses to back up virtually anything he says - you sure know how to do a lot of talking, James.

And my promised videos with my boxing-experienced student, Rich Alvarado, have not been filmed AS OF YET because Rich has been unable to come to class for quite some time now - due to his mother’s illness.

But those videos will be coming.

Enough said for now.

Jeez, if GM Cheung’s standards have lessened since Denver in 90’ then it’s now wonder the TWC organization has problems…

You got mails from people about me? Boy that makes me feel wonderful. Just so you know Vic, I got PM’s about you the 3rd day after my first post on this forum, none of them very complimentary, so THERE…

To put this simply, I do not accept challenges. The best thing to do if anyone has a problem with me is to just introduce themselves and then attack. So far over 16yrs of experience this has happened only once, and after a couple of minutes the guy choose not to attack me. Again Vic, say what you want about my skills, as I’ve never claimed to be a"fighter" like you, lol. Only a teacher (of more than 6 students) and someone with skills in WC, which to me means someone that can defend themselves and others when needed. So no ego bruised here…

You should realize Vic, that your the own threads on this forum tell allot about you. In essence it appears to me that you are obsessed with fighting, which to me means you essentially have a self esteem problem. Sparring is all you think about it seems and although I do respect that fact that you still train hard physically in the arts after 30+yrs of practice, you fail to realize that after a while it becomes more than a physical excercise, but a mental/ spiritual one. Many people have told you the samething but to fall on deaf ears. If your true goal is to promote WC then having 6 students in your school is not going to do it, neither is trying to make WC something it isn’t, a COMPETITION MARTIAL ART, as it was never design to be so and never will IMO.

James

[Tom_Kagan]

@anerlich

I studied this poem in high school.

Try to be a bit less patronising in future, please.

Robert Frost was crap at WC.

Fair enough. Regardless of whether you studied the poem, I did make an assumption that you missed the double entendre instead of purposely sidestepping it for the sake of a good zinger. My mistake, sorry; you got me. Kudos.

However, it is possible, depending on one’s point of view, that a more patronizing assumption would have been to arbitrarily conclude what someone’s martial experience is or is not based upon playful banter on an internet forum. Thank goodness I didn’t do that - who knows how you might have reacted.

Do you think Robert Frost studied modified, traditional, or some variant that must not be named? Would Faulkner style beat Frost style? Does either have the guts to step up to the James Joyce challenge?

[Ultimatewingchun]

James:

THIS WILL BE MY LAST COMMUNICATION POST TO YOU ON THIS FORUM…

as I’ve decided that I’m no longer willing to help you attain your “15 minutes of fame” anymore - which is what so many of your posts seem to be about (getting people’s attention so that YOU can feel good about YOURSELF) - even if it means making ridiculous claims (ie.- “William Cheung believes that the two best students he ever had was Bruce Lee and your sifu, Brian Lewadny” ). Yeah…right!

And even if it means trying to PRETEND that you’re a serious martial artist when in fact you DON’T EVEN DO ANY SPARRING …Again - this is a joke!

And speaking of jokes, up until now I’ve refrained from saying this - because I didn’t want to sink to your level - but I see now that it has to be said: EVERY SINGLE VIDEO that you’ve posted on here - whether it be double arm chi sao or the prearranged two-man “fight scenes” you did as a demo at a shopping mall - they’re all AMATEUR HOUR STUFF…I mean like…there’s just nothing going on there that’s worth talking about.

And your latest attack upon me (this time it’s that I have low self esteem) is because you’re NOT a fighter in any way, shape, or form - which is why you wouldn’t come to Cleveland - once you realized that no one was buying your idea that the event shouldn’t center around actual sparring…SO OF COURSE you want to try and tear down my preoccupation with threads and posts that have to do with ACTUAL fighting and sparring.

And as for the amount of students I currently have attending my classes (it’s 10 - not 6)…I HAVE IT THAT WAY ON PURPOSE.

You have conveniently forgotten to take into account that I’ve been teaching for 20.5 years (and that for 17 of those years the attendance in my school had always been between 25 and 40 students)…but 3.5 years ago is when I decided to take CROSSTRAINING so seriously that I don’t want many students anymore - since there are so many bases I want to cover at the classes I teach. (You can’t do that with LOTS of students in attendance).

And as for my “alleged” non-understanding and interest in a higher philosophy and a spiritual approach to life (and martial arts)…you should know that I was a member of the United Lodge Of Theosophists here in NYC for 19 years - and regularly gave 30 minute lectures and answered questions from audiences for 15 of those years on all kinds of subjects that included Taoism, Mahayana Buddhism, esoteric Christianity (Gnosticism), the Hindu scripture known as The Bhagavad Gita, (the dialogue bewteem Krishna and his disciple, Arjuna, that makes up the highest teachings in Hinduism), Zen, meditation, karma and reincarnation, the philosophy of Plato, the Hermetic teachings from ancient Egypt, what happens after the death, the true meaning of the terms Spirit, Soul, Mind (and the rest of the sevenfold nature of man), etc. (and the attendance at those Sunday night lectures and question & answer periods in Manhattan was sometimes as much as 100 people).

So that’s it, James. You’ve spent 16 years in Wing Chun and I’ve spent 30. Your threads go nowhere, and quite a few of mine get literally thousands upon thousands of views (hits)…and some of them wind up with 200-300 actual posts from numerous people.

Good riddance, man…time to cut off your air supply - in terms of your “quest” to be THE MAN when it comes to TWC around here.

I’m putting you on my IGNORE LIST…only this time it’s permanent.

[Airdrawndagger]

@unkokusai

Wtf man. Are you hanging around airports and bus stations handing out literature for this religion of yours?

Dude, wtf are u talking about?

[sihing]

@Ultimatewingchun

James:

THIS WILL BE MY LAST COMMUNICATION POST TO YOU ON THIS FORUM…

as I’ve decided that I’m no longer willing to help you attain your “15 minutes of fame” anymore - which is what so many of your posts seem to be about (getting people’s attention so that YOU can feel good about YOURSELF) - even if it means making ridiculous claims (ie.- “William Cheung believes that the two best students he ever had was Bruce Lee and your sifu, Brian Lewadny” ). Yeah…right!

And even if it means trying to PRETEND that you’re a serious martial artist when in fact you DON’T EVEN DO ANY SPARRING …Again - this is a joke!

And speaking of jokes, up until now I’ve refrained from saying this - because I didn’t want to sink to your level - but I see now that it has to be said: EVERY SINGLE VIDEO that you’ve posted on here - whether it be double arm chi sao or the prearranged two-man “fight scenes” you did as a demo at a shopping mall - they’re all AMATEUR HOUR STUFF…I mean like…there’s just nothing going on there that’s worth talking about.

And your latest attack upon me (this time it’s that I have low self esteem) is because you’re NOT a fighter in any way, shape, or form - which is why you wouldn’t come to Cleveland - once you realized that no one was buying your idea that the event shouldn’t center around actual sparring…SO OF COURSE you want to try and tear down my preoccupation with threads and posts that have to do with ACTUAL fighting and sparring.

And as for the amount of students I currently have attending my classes (it’s 10 - not 6)…I HAVE IT THAT WAY ON PURPOSE.

You have conveniently forgotten to take into account that I’ve been teaching for 20.5 years (and that for 17 of those years the attendance in my school had always been between 25 and 40 students)…but 3.5 years ago is when I decided to take CROSSTRAINING so seriously that I don’t want many students anymore - since there are so many bases I want to cover at the classes I teach. (You can’t do that with LOTS of students in attendance).

And as for my “alleged” non-understanding and interest in a higher philosophy and a spiritual approach to life (and martial arts)…you should know that I was a member of the United Lodge Of Theosophists here in NYC for 19 years - and regularly gave 30 minute lectures and answered questions from audiences for 15 of those years on all kinds of subjects that included Taoism, Mahayana Buddhism, esoteric Christianity (Gnosticism), the Hindu scripture known as The Bhagavad Gita, (the dialogue bewteem Krishna and his disciple, Arjuna, that makes up the highest teachings in Hinduism), Zen, meditation, karma and reincarnation, the philosophy of Plato, the Hermetic teachings from ancient Egypt, what happens after the death, the true meaning of the terms Spirit, Soul, Mind (and the rest of the sevenfold nature of man), etc. (and the attendance at those Sunday night lectures and question & answer periods in Manhattan was sometimes as much as 100 people).

So that’s it, James. You’ve spent 16 years in Wing Chun and I’ve spent 30. Your threads go nowhere, and quite a few of mine get literally thousands upon thousands of views (hits)…and some of them wind up with 200-300 actual posts from numerous people.

Good riddance, man…time to cut off your air supply - in terms of your “quest” to be THE MAN when it comes to TWC around here.

I’m putting you on my IGNORE LIST…only this time it’s permanent.

Well I guess I won the bet, it only took 6 posts to get my self on Vic’s ignore list again..LOL. Well Vic you sound pretty proud of yourself with all your lectures and people reading all your awesome threads around here, like this is the place to be when looking for Wing Chun (like how many different people continue to post here on a regular basis, 10 to 15?). Well you continue to go ahead and start threads on Sparring while I continue to teach the 200+ students and rising in the kwoon.

Oh yeah, as for serious Martial Artist, one that has been training and teaching for more than 14yrs on a pretty consistent basis, has to be IMO considered a Serious Martial Artist, regardless of what they practice in the MA. I don’t see you dissing Gary Lam much Victor, is he sparring regularly, grapplers or anyone else for that matter? Yeah, he did lots of things in the past, and I respect him for what he has done, but does that mean because he no longer does those samethings that he has no skills? I don’t think so, the same applies to myself and others who choose other methods of training and development. Not everyone believes as you Victor, and that’s a good thing because if they did they would end up unfortunately with little in the way of quality skills following your lead.

James

P.S. please someone pass this on to Vic as he is ignoring me now and may want to read this, LOL…

[anerlich]

As usual Andrew, you always stick your rear into things that don’t concern you…

James, what a funny punster you are …

It’s a public forum … if you want a private conversation, there is a feature called “Private Messages”. And there’s also this thing called email, something I gather canglong recently made successful use of with our mutual assistance … Hey, it seemed OK for you to jump into that discussion …

There’s also a feature called the “ignore list” … though the paranoid would wonder what people were saying about them … as if …

[Edmund]

@Airdrawndagger

Yes I am very defensive about wing chun because it is a big part of my life. I dont care how anyone practices MA but to put down WC just isn’t cool in my book. Yes I believe that WC has a answer for any form of hand to hand combat.

It’s a big part of a lot of people’s lives for most on this forum as well. Right?
I don’t see anyone putting down WC.

While WC may have an answer for something, other people outside of WC also have alternative answers too. Because they may specialize in things such as wrestling or jujitsu they may have a solution that draws on that extra experience on the ground.

[unkokusai]

@Airdrawndagger

Dude, wtf are u talking about?

I’m talking about you and your brainwashed cult member attitude towards WC.

(kinda thought you would have gotten that)