I see very little facts in your post, to say that ninty percent of what is effective in JKD is based on Wing Chun is a bit of a overstatement. If anything in most JKD schools I have trained at there is very little of actual Wing Chun techniques taught in class. I could make a statement that fencing or boxing has more influnce on the developement of JKD then Wing Chun and it would be just as true. As it is this line of arguement is a waste of time and the only reason I see to continue this arguement is to start a flame war. I suggest all you hardcore Wing Chun guys to continue your infighting and to leave JKD both Jun Fan and Concepts out of it. Thank you.-ED
BTW, we all saw how effective Wing Chun was when those two Wing Chun “masters” fought in Germany a few years ago, what a joke of a fight. What were there names again?
“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist
you know what i think is funny here? the ppl who like or do JKD wanna think of their art as a little more independant/fundemental/etc etc “whatever” and those who don’t particularly the win chun guys keep pointing out that allmost all JKD is a buncha regurgatated win chun material.
moving on, i agree lee was a con more politely a salesman looking to make a name for himself but aren’t all actors salesmen?>…
however this doesn’t explain his supposed/factual fighting ability.
His fighting ablity is sound he was more than an actor Wing Chun covers the basis of structute and in-fighting but he devloped the other two ranges (long and med range) and created a unige creature that I have used sucessfully.
remember that bruce said that you should only use what is useful, and he only wrote what he found useful in jkd.. he removed the inesentials, from routines that go nowhere. and i totally agree with his thinking.
i did karate for 10 years and one day i thought.. wow this is boring, it dosn’t suit me, so i stoped.(no offense to any karate students)
anyways my point is that bruce never finished his JKD, so we can still build upon it
thanks
Actually everything that bruce professed and that you accredit to Wing Chun have been around since before wing chung. Northern Shaolin systems have practised these techniques for centuries. Also Bruce’s philosophies also preceed him “have form without appearing to have form” this was actually
borrowed from the “Sun Tsu: The art of Warfare” of which some text dates back to before 341 b.c. when it was finally written and before that it was passed down orally.
The whole art if Jeet Kune Do is taking what you want and throwing the rest away. If the straight blast works for you…use it, otherwise throw it away. Almost everything in Jeet Kune Do is taken from another art. That’s what gives the practictioner freedom.
All of this bantering is nice and very informative, but I think that we’ve gotten away from the point. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, I think that alot of these concepts and techniques were attributed to Bruce Lee mainly because up until Lee began teaching, most of the other sifus’ were unwilling to teach non Chinese. And when Lee began lifting that veil of secrecy, people naturally thought that Lee originated the material.
As far as for Lee lieing concerning his Wing Chun credentials, who cares. When he arrived here in America, people didn’t know wing chun from jujitsu from karate. All they knew was that Bruce Lee was an awesome dude who knew and could do things that most of the other instructors around could only dream of doing. People didn’t care where it came from or how he got it, they just knew that they wanted it. So thats what he gave them.
Looking at the kind of MA Dan Inosanto is I’ve often wondered if he is responsible for a lot of Lees JKD. Dan is the martial artist Lee wished he could have been.
If anybody had a protege like guru Inosanto they’d look like the king of whatever style also.
R: “Dan is the martial artist Lee wished he could have been.”
HKV: “From what basis do you make up this statement about Bruce Lee and his PROTEGE, rogue?”
Response: Easy, how many systems has Dan Inosanto mastered? Giron System of Arnis Escrima, BJJ, Silat, Muay Thai and Jun Fan Gung Fu.
Now how many systems did Bruce Lee master? Zero, zip, nada. Bruce Lee may have observed, borrowed and used pieces of systems, and used those pieces quite well, but he never mastered any one system.
Take Bruce Lees star power and natural talent, surround him with some very talented people and you have one great legend.
Lee could have been on a level like Inosanto but I believe that he lacked the patience to stick with anything long enough, not to mention his ego.
With or without Bruce Lee,Dan Inosanto was & still is an accomplished Martial Artist in his own right…
If it wasn’t for Dan Jeet Kune Do may not have gotten as far as it has…
Case in point why was it that after Bruce’s untimely death everyone looked to Dan to carry on “Bruce Lees Jeet Kune Do” & by doing so Dan took Jeet Kune Do to the next Level.
There are no two ways around that one if you feel that there is then all I can say is you got issues my friend…
Bruce Lee may have not mastered the entire WC system, but he certainly mastered that which he learned from a traditional CMA perspective.
Just look at his videos when he was a young man. That guy really knew what he was doing, and every traditional sifu I’ve ever had felt that way.
They also have felt that Bruce Lee “mastered” his Jun Fan/JKD system by adding on to it what his incomplete WC years lacked. I agree with them.
It takes great patience to learn anything to the extent Bruce Lee did, rogue. Ask yourself - can YOU do as well as he did WITH your patience?
You’ll find out, rogue, that one NEEDS a healthy dose of self-confidence to be as capable as Bruce Lee is. This holds true not just in kung fu, but in any endeavor in which one trains daily to be GOOD.
Dan Inosanto considers himself a Bruce Lee student. He’s a great martial artist - yet he studied with one that you said is inferior to him. Why would a master of combat study with anyone LESS CAPABLE than himself?
And I agree with you RAYNYSC. People do look to Inosanto as the rightful heir to the Lee teachings.
I think that Lee was a natural talent who worked hard, but was also a big self-promoter.
Q. “It takes great patience to learn anything to the extent Bruce Lee did, rogue. Ask yourself - can YOU do as well as he did WITH your patience?”
A. Wrong, it takes hard work to learn anything to the extent Lee did. He wasn’t a patient person.
Q. “Dan Inosanto considers himself a Bruce Lee student. He’s a great martial artist - yet he studied with one that you said is inferior to him.”
A. I did not say Lee was inferior, you did.
Q. “Why would a master of combat study with anyone LESS CAPABLE than himself?”
A. At the time I believe that they were about the same level, yes?
Q. “You’ll find out, rogue, that one NEEDS a healthy dose of self-confidence to be as capable as Bruce Lee is. This holds true not just in kung fu, but in any endeavor in which one trains daily to be GOOD.”
A. True, but letting ones ego run away with them is something all together different.
“Just look at his videos when he was a young man. That guy really knew what he was doing, and every traditional sifu I’ve ever had felt that way.”
Which videos?
BTW, Lee did help to influence me for years. I beleived his crap about traditional arts for years.
Off the subject: rogue, it’s a PLEASURE having intelligent martial arts discussion with you. This sure is a welcome change from the trolling going on here.
The prerequisite to hard work is patience, and Bruce Lee worked as hard as anyone I can think of to master his art.
Your two middle points I understand but feel differently about, and I’ll leave it at that. Nice going.
Could you provide me with examples of how Lee’s ego ran away?
The videos I’m talking about are the black-and-white ones that he made at the Karate Championship in the 60s. I also am talking about his screen test for Warner Brothers, not to mention his movies. I’ve seen all these in various Bruce Lee video tributes, and he’s VERY IMPRESSIVE.
Personally, I think that Bruce Lee really respected the traditional arts.
I just don’t think that he respected the BS that a lot of instructors bring to it - and I know you and I don’t either.
Where’d you get those vids of the Karate Championships? I’d really like to see them.
As to working hard and patience…
I’ve met guys who work extremly hard for short periods of time. They either master something quickly or if they don’t get the hang of something they move on.
Now here’s a question that I don’t know the answer to, did Lee when making movies in HK ever go back and train in Wing Chun?
