There is no such thing as structure

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;965877]So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.[/QUOTE]

Yup. And even after a while, I can have Fuk energy in Biu Sao, or Tan Sao. And I put all energies in my Jik Chung Chuie. Then I have no “one set structure”.

But if no one has this cultivation/work, they don’t have the necessary skill.

42

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;965846]There’s some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn’t sound like someone’s been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with “structure” is “base”.

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about “base”, it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good “base” is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good “base” is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good “base” which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the “you either have it or don’t” statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no “base” even if they do in general.

I don’t like the word “structure” in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has “structure” as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don’t like the word “root” either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.[/QUOTE]

Good post, but the term “base” can be confusing, too.

Would “Frame” be better? Or perhaps “Body alignment”, “vector force alignment”?

It all becomes semantics and preference.

Sometimes we do a drill of standing in one place - a la Mui Fa Jong or Baat Sien Toi, or on top of 5 bricks and play - it is just a drill for base.

43

[QUOTE=chusauli;965927]Yup. And even after a while, I can have Fuk energy in Biu Sao, or Tan Sao. And I put all energies in my Jik Chung Chuie. Then I have no “one set structure”.

But if no one has this cultivation/work, they don’t have the necessary skill.[/QUOTE]

I find if one’s body is in correct alignment, and have the correct body mechanics by second nature. The mind is no longer pre-ocupied, stuck or trap on these these things. Therefore it becomes free to flow and adapt to the opponent’s movements. The tecchniques are now all about your energetics or intent in response to the opponent’s energy or intent, any techniques can have any energy, for example tan can have fook energy and biu can have bong energy or vice versa. it’s as if the opponent’s body becomes your body, there is no resistance. You control his every movent as if lifting your own arm with intent.:slight_smile:

44

speaking about structure or dynamic structure .. how then is dissolving in coming force be done? what type of structure and or what type of dynamic structure?

and why is dissolving is not withdraw and not resisting.

Some says one root and the force comes going down to the ground. it that dissolving or is it withdrawing or it is resisting?

45

Guys…

Ying (structure/shape) is Energy. One of the Five energies to be exact.

For one to think that structure is simply a static, fixed position physical expression is truly a beginning level understanding of the nature of Ying. On the contrary Ying is a dynamically changing expression… what we refer to in HFY as “Structural Energy” and represents the core foundation within which Tin Yan Dei body mechanics are developed.

Muscle, Bone, Tendon, power generation (ging) although related is a separate topic.

LAU energy or FLOW does not replace YING but instead adds to it and COMPLIMENTS IT.

Lau (Flow) without Ying (structure) is like driving a car with out breaks. As soon as you try to take a turn without someway of controlling and reducing your speed… your car will inevitably spins out of control, and off the road.

This translates into WCK as the practitioner losing their awareness of themselves and falling into distortion body mechanics such as being stretched out, over-extending, or collapsing and compromising one’s spacial integrity.

This is specifically why in HFY we have defined system structural reference points and their energy expressions/ussages.

This allow’s the HFY practitioner the ability to easily distinguish when they are using distortion/san sau body mechanics, and when they are using system body mechanics… and flow in between.

On a side note…

In regards to Hendrik’s demonstration of Jaam Jong (standing post). Where he is at right now is very beginning, and holds little martial art value. Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with “off energy” as well.

Anyways, I’m glad for him that he finally understands the importance of Jaam Jong and how it can benefit one’s WCK. As not too long ago, he was vehemently opposed to it, and made many insulting posts here on KFO as to why it had no place in WCK.

I’m glad to see by his actions, that he takes all that back now.

Good training to all. :slight_smile:

46

[QUOTE=duende;966003]Guys…

In regards to Hendrik’s demonstration of Jaam Jong (standing post). Where he is at right now is very beginning, and holds little martial art value.

Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with “off energy” as well.

[/QUOTE]

Could you please enlightent me what is

[B]
Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with “off energy” as well.[/B

mean?

Thanks in advance.

47

Cpmment on Hendrik’s post

There is no such thing as structure
Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.(Hendrik)

Yes and no. Depends on meaning and context. “No” sounds dogmatic and absolutist.

joy chaudhuri

48

Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

49

What exactly does it mean to have Structure? Does the structure change between variations? Can structure be altered to change effects of a desired technique?

50

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;966142]Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA[/QUOTE]

What is the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve?

51

[QUOTE=Hendrik;966012]Could you please enlightent me what is


Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with “off energy” as well.

mean?

Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]

I am still waiting for your sharing.

52

[QUOTE=Hendrik;966162]I am still waiting for your sharing.[/QUOTE]

Little impatient are we Hendrik?

Perhaps while you were waiting you could have shared with us all how you came to this complete 180 about Jaam Jong and WCK??

Anyways, I’ve little reason to help a person who asks questions out of one side of their mouth and makes insults out of the other.

I will tell you this though…

If you truly seek enlightenment… accepting differences of understanding, appreciating experiences of others… is key.

There’s more than one star in the sky.

53

[QUOTE=duende;966170]Little impatient are we Hendrik?

Perhaps while you were waiting you could have shared with us all how you came to this complete 180 about Jaam Jong and WCK??

Anyways, I’ve little reason to help a person who asks questions out of one side of their mouth and makes insults out of the other.

I will tell you this though…

If you truly seek enlightenment… accepting differences of understanding, appreciating experiences of others… is key.

There’s more than one star in the sky.[/QUOTE]

Here I passed your discussion.

Thanks.

54

[QUOTE=duende;966170]Little impatient are we Hendrik?

Perhaps while you were waiting you could have shared with us all how you came to this complete 180 about Jaam Jong and WCK??

Anyways, I’ve little reason to help a person who asks questions out of one side of their mouth and makes insults out of the other.

I will tell you this though…

If you truly seek enlightenment… accepting differences of understanding, appreciating experiences of others… is key.

There’s more than one star in the sky.[/QUOTE]

if you read hendrik message he was a waiting for an answer from himself ha ha

Quote:

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Hendrik
Could you please enlightent me what is

Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with “off energy” as well.

mean?

Thanks in advance.

I am still waiting for your sharing. [/QUOTE]

55

who really knows the music of flow?

56

[QUOTE=Hendrik;966471]who really knows the music of flow?[/QUOTE]

I do.

It is the heavy beat of the war drums mixed with the sounds of bag pipes.

It is the sound of Thor’s hammer cleaving the universe.

It is the pounding sound of your own heartbeat drumming in your ears.

It is the coppery taste of adrenaline in your mouth.

It is the world turning red as seen through your eyes.

It is the song of the berserker!

Of course that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

57

who really knows the music of flow?

Easy.

Seven Nation Army - White Stripes.

58

[QUOTE=anerlich;966738]Easy.

Seven Nation Army - White Stripes.[/QUOTE]

Nice :slight_smile:

I can see why Hendrik has so much structure troubles, heck his WC doesn’t even have Chum Kiu or Biu Gee!

59

[QUOTE=Hendrik;966161]What is the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve?[/QUOTE]

Without “sung” and activation of one’s CTS. One is just wasting time intellectually discussing these things. It’s impossible to understand the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve without first achieving the state of “sung”:slight_smile:

60

[QUOTE=Hendrik;966471]who really knows the music of flow?[/QUOTE]

Well what is flow. To flow you need Sung. With out sung there is no flow. To flow is to be like endless river which pounds a rock to dust. One needs to Sung the Waist to have power. But what is Flow Hendrik…Is it not like water that continues its journey uninterrupted and never stopping. flow is motion that is unbroken continuity. It is like flowing water. Can you catch water in your hands. Can you hold it in your arms. It will continously make its way around to a opening and leak out. Can you hurt flowing water. If you strike it will it not dissolve your attack while still moving. Stand in a river. Can you stop its flow with your strength? Flow is unbroken and smooth and fluid. It is soft but devasting. In movement flow like a thunderous waving river. In stillness be like a mountain. Be like water. In stillness it can be heavy as a mountain but soft as cotton. When you hit it you can not break it or cut it. It returns back to its normal posistion. But when Water hits you it is strong like an avalance knocking you off your feet and sending you hurling feet away…But if you are double weighted you can not flow. You will be sluggish and slow. Your weight must be empty at one place and full in another. Just as water is both full and empty.

The Music of Flow is Like this:

“When the flow is swift it is difficult to resist. Coming to a high place, it swells and fills the place up;meeting a hollow it dives downward. The waves rise and fall, finding a hole they will surely surge in.”

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;966746]Without “sung” and activation of one’s CTS. One is just wasting time intellectually discussing these things. It’s impossible to understand the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve without first achieving the state of “sung”:)[/QUOTE]

In order to understand sung or activate anything you must first know yourself and know others. You learn your self by practicing the form slowly you know others by doing chi sau.