There is no such thing as structure

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=chusauli;965689]Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you’ve attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes…so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don’t need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.[/QUOTE]

So your four structure tests are just an illusion then, eh Robert? :wink:

22

[QUOTE=chusauli;965689]Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you’ve attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes…so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don’t need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.[/QUOTE]

Robert,

       What's the difference between how you apply structure by using alignment to relax/tighten certain muscles compare to what Hendrik refers to as "there is no structure but flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action Similar to water.
23

[QUOTE=anerlich;965782]So your four structure tests are just an illusion then, eh Robert? ;)[/QUOTE]

Yup. 4 structure tests became 8, then 16, then 64, then the entire system…finally, there was no need for structure tests. If you have it, you have it. If you don’t you don’t. Even if you have it and don’t do it at the right time, you don’t have it.

All of this is Maya.

Maybe too much Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj lately… :slight_smile:

24

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;965785]Robert,

       What's the difference between how you apply structure by using alignment to relax/tighten certain muscles compare to what Hendrik refers to as "there is no structure but flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action Similar to water.[/QUOTE]

Navin,

I just answered your question. Hendrik is talking about “letting go of self”. if you missed what I wrote, “If you have it, you have it. If you don’t you don’t. Even if you have it and don’t do it at the right time, you don’t have it.”

You only have it when you let go.

25

[QUOTE=Hendrik;965639]Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.

The ultimate of WCK is comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action.

Similar to water, there is no structure but flexflow.

So, why is it structure becomes popular?

1, because WCner cant handle the flexflow at the begining, thus a fix structure is use as an aid or intermediate tool to explain and cultivate a certain fix point’s force vectors execution.

Thus, keeping a certain structure is actually become a self-hinderance to advance art of daily reality.

2, mimic-ing other southern style which is no WCK such as SMT unknowingly.

3, mimic-ing Taiji teaching aids while un aware of Taiji also has no structure.

Thus, if you think you are going to learn about structure in SLT/SNt and that structure is going to do magic for you. Well, sorry, you walk a mislead path.

Certainly, you might argue with me that putting your body behind your elbow…ect will give you more power … structure power…

Sure, but those are not the flexflow, that structure is only as good as the strenght of your opponents. if your opponents has more power, you cant stance a chance. Why? because this type of strcuture is based on the stronger the opposition force win.

See, in reality, there are three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve.

Most 95% of people know only the resistance and the with draw, those are stuff within the realm of more power will win. as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win.

"comes accept goes return " prerequisite is dissolve state. and not resistance and or withdraw, withdrawing is not accept resisting is not return.

What do you think?[/QUOTE]

Good post I think you answered your own questions about structure and what you call the flex flow. What I call empty or a flowing structure one that is motion like water. Structure as you said is a begiining not the end alll be all. even flex-flow is not the end. One must learn how to crawl before one can walk.

26

With the risk of confusing the heck out of you guys:

All directions are within the mind. I am not asking you to look in any particular direction. Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling ‘I am’. The ‘I am’ is not a direction. It is the negation of all directions. Ultimately even the ‘I am’ will have to go for you need not keep asserting what is obvious. Bringing the mind to the feeling ‘I am’ merely helps turning the mind away from everything else.

Go deep into the sense of ‘I am’ and you will find. How do you find a thing you have mislaid or forgotten? You keep it in your mind until you recall it. The sense of being, of ‘I am’ is the first to emerge. Ask yourself whence it comes or just watch it quietly. When the mind stays in the ‘I am’, without moving, you enter a state, which cannot be verbalized, but which can be experienced. All you need to do is to try and try again. After all the sense of ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it- body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions and so on. All these self-identifications are misleading, because of these you take yourself to be what you are not.

  • Nisargadatta Maharaj

That is why Hendrik appears to be sleeping.

27

[QUOTE=chusauli;965689]Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you’ve attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes…so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don’t need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.[/QUOTE]
nicely put, bro. i agree 100%!

28

[QUOTE=Hendrik;965750]Robert has described clearly what is no structure above.[/QUOTE]

I understand now. You have an interesting point. Hopefully, my understanding is adequate so that I can explore it with you. I typically refer to what you are talking about as “no mind” or void rather than structure. Myself, and others, tend to perceive structure as a standard way of going about things within a system. Although, I see your point about how at a high level that the standard structure can lose its character as well.

I am not a JKD man or anything but I respect Dan Inosanto as a true master of what he does. He once said something to the effect of, “At high levels it all just looks like kicking and punching.” On some level, I see how as masters of different arts converge in mental states, they also converge in form, or lack there of as you say. Do you agree with this?

Also, in your training, I see an external representation of relaxation and what appears to be you being in the moment. What is your internal/mental state?

29

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;965810]I understand now. You have an interesting point. Hopefully, my understanding is adequate so that I can explore it with you. I typically refer to what you are talking about as “no mind” or void rather than structure. Myself, and others, tend to perceive structure as a standard way of going about things within a system. Although, I see your point about how at a high level that the standard structure can lose its character as well.

I am not a JKD man or anything but I respect Dan Inosanto as a true master of what he does. He once said something to the effect of, “At high levels it all just looks like kicking and punching.” On some level, I see how as masters of different arts converge in mental states, they also converge in form, or lack there of as you say. Do you agree with this?

Also, in your training, I see an external representation of relaxation and what appears to be you being in the moment. What is your internal/mental state?[/QUOTE]

To be real honest,
Once you need to hold on a certain structure you have set up your weakness for attack.

In general, why is so many WCner get take down easy? the structure doesnt work? Nope, the structure they train in work perfectly, the only thing they mis calculate is all existing structure got weakness. and unless one can adaptively change structure, keeping one structure is dead deal.

Sure, in the advance level we can talk about no self. however have is no self in daily layman term?

simple, it is just not stuck in one mind set. see every mind set is a self. and self got nothing wrong, it is that stuck in one mind set and thinking that is everything that screw us.

Same with physical same with mental, not stuck is flow. that simple, but then we mostly keep training on one type of mind set and or one type of physical way and thinking that mind set and physical way will become the rule of the universe, well, sorry, at the end we all will be dissapointed because not keeping one mind set is the truth.

Zen is so simple, just dont attached. egoless is just dont purposely get stuck.

30

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;965810]I understand now. You have an interesting point. Hopefully, my understanding is adequate so that I can explore it with you. I typically refer to what you are talking about as “no mind” or void rather than structure. Myself, and others, tend to perceive structure as a standard way of going about things within a system. Although, I see your point about how at a high level that the standard structure can lose its character as well.

I am not a JKD man or anything but I respect Dan Inosanto as a true master of what he does. He once said something to the effect of, “At high levels it all just looks like kicking and punching.” On some level, I see how as masters of different arts converge in mental states, they also converge in form, or lack there of as you say. Do you agree with this?

Also, in your training, I see an external representation of relaxation and what appears to be you being in the moment. What is your internal/mental state?[/QUOTE]

To be real honest,
Once you need to hold on a certain structure you have set up your weakness for attack.

In general, why is so many WCner get take down easy? the structure doesnt work? Nope, the structure they train in work perfectly, the only thing they mis calculate is all existing structure got weakness. and unless one can adaptively change structure, keeping one structure is dead deal.

Sure, in the advance level we can talk about no self. however have is no self no mind in daily layman term?

simple, it is just not stuck in one mind set. see every mind set is a self. and self got nothing wrong, it is that stuck in one mind set and thinking that is everything that screw us.

Same with physical same with mental, not stuck is flow. that simple, but then we mostly keep training on one type of mind set and or one type of physical way and thinking that mind set and physical way will become the rule of the universe, well, sorry, at the end we all will be dissapointed because not keeping one mind set is the truth. thinking one mind set or one physical way is the ultimate is actually walking into doom’s day — stuck or as is it said in Buddhism Dukka everything stuck and nothing move.

Zen is simple, just dont attached. no self is just dont purposely get stuck in emphasis on oneself. no mind is just knowing different variaty of thoughts surface but not get carry away be them blindly. practice that daily and you practice zen.

and if you mind dont get stuck your physical will not get stuck too.

31

flewflow is the dynamic structure. one first learn all the key structures then master all of them, then forget about structure, then one will become what it needs to be when one needs a structure.

no mind, mind is just a hinderance. No applied this tan sau that fook sau that body behind the elbow…etc.

No thinking. by passed thinking.

until one get to that state one doesnt know dynamic structure but similar to a parrot trying to mimic human. getting stuck with this structure or that tan sau indicate a stuck in the mind that means stuck in the body execution.

32

[QUOTE=Hendrik;965814]

Sure, in the advance level we can talk about no self. however have is no self no mind in daily layman term?

[/QUOTE]

No self is not a common term. It probably only exists in martial arts in the U.S.A., but I am not sure how common it is among martial artists. I assume, that it is something that many longtime sifus would understand (irrespective of art). It was taught to me; I use it; and teach it to my students, but beyond that I cannot say for certain. However, I am not sure that the term fully clarifies your point as I understand it.

No self is something that is commonly understood in athletics as an experience. Athletes recall being “hot,” people moving in slow motion, the basketball rim looking big to them. I have heard NFL quarterback, Peyton Manning, say that, “everyone looked open.”

33

[QUOTE=chusauli;965791]Yup. 4 structure tests became 8, then 16, then 64, then the entire system…finally, there was no need for structure tests. If you have it, you have it. If you don’t you don’t. Even if you have it and don’t do it at the right time, you don’t have it.

All of this is Maya.

Maybe too much Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj lately… :)[/QUOTE]

So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.

34

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;965817]No self is not a common term. It probably only exists in martial arts in the U.S.A., but I am not sure how common it is among martial artists. I assume, that it is something that many longtime sifus would understand (irrespective of art). It was taught to me; I use it; and teach it to my students, but beyond that I cannot say for certain. However, I am not sure that the term fully clarifies your point as I understand it.

No self is something that is commonly understood in athletics as an experience. Athletes recall being “hot,” people moving in slow motion, the basketball rim looking big to them. I have heard NFL quarterback, Peyton Manning, say that, “everyone looked open.”[/QUOTE]

For me, No self is a Zen term. and I present it as it is how I learn from Zen.

35

All directions are within the mind.

I guess you don’t have satellite navigation in the car then, Robert? :smiley:

36

There’s some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn’t sound like someone’s been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with “structure” is “base”.

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about “base”, it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good “base” is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good “base” is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good “base” which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the “you either have it or don’t” statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no “base” even if they do in general.

I don’t like the word “structure” in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has “structure” as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don’t like the word “root” either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

37

Hello,

What can be achieved from Hendrik’s clip???

Stand, Relax & Breath is a very useful tool for many aspects of development!

  1. If you cannot just stand still, completely relax and breath effortlessly then how do you expect to do it while moving or stepping or even in combat? The quality of Sung must be achieved.

  2. The 1st 3 layers of ones training can be tuned thru the simple concept of Stand, Relax and Breath. Physical conditioning, Mind conditioning and Breath conditioning. So, it is a Lab for your development.

  3. The so-called “soft boxing arts” are supposed to be rooted in (yang sheng) or life nourishing exercise. This means, when you practice you should not deplete but re-vitalize. So, in stillness you activate every cell in the body, evenly and smoothly nourish all the organs and other great benefits.

The end results are wholesome soft force and segmented power. Not a structure that can be attached to, and controlled, but a constantly alive and adjusting type of state of attainment. Someone once asked??? How can you condition without doing anything? Similar to untangle a telephone cord! Hang it upside down and let it (body/spine) untangle gradually and smooth. Unlike some forms of Yoga and other Hard types of conditioning. What would happen to the tele cord if you just grabbed both ends and pulled? Would it untangle? Maybe a little but a totally different approach. This is the difference between natural and un-natural process.

So, when you think about just standing still and what kind of results are going to happen from this??? Well, there are many! It is an important and useful tool on many levels but it brings awareness to the three main keys! Posture, relaxation and breathing.

Back to lurk mode!!!

Peace,

38

[QUOTE=chusauli;965791]Yup. 4 structure tests became 8, then 16, then 64, then the entire system…finally, there was no need for structure tests. If you have it, you have it. If you don’t you don’t. Even if you have it and don’t do it at the right time, you don’t have it.

All of this is Maya.

Maybe too much Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj lately… :)[/QUOTE]

So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.

39

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;965846]There’s some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn’t sound like someone’s been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with “structure” is “base”.

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about “base”, it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good “base” is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good “base” is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good “base” which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the “you either have it or don’t” statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no “base” even if they do in general.

I don’t like the word “structure” in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has “structure” as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don’t like the word “root” either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.[/QUOTE]

Good post. This is what I was trying to say, but better and clearer.

40

[QUOTE=anerlich;965845]I guess you don’t have satellite navigation in the car then, Robert? :D[/QUOTE]

If you think about it, all directions are in the mind. If I drive home, I don’t have to think this is North, this is West, then turn South, etc., if I know the route.

But if all else fails, there’s GPS… :slight_smile: