The Wing Chun Mystery

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Jim and Hendrik posts:

From different sources both of you have IMO given a credible link between
the complex metaphors of the crane and the snake. Good work on historical roots.
Congratulations.

But as I try to point out often it can be a problem on generalising for all wing chun
folks. Wing chun practices are quite diverse depending on who is teaching whom.
Although they may not use the same language some folks have consistently used the synthesis of the snake and crane though there might be differences in verbal expressions and usage..

The problem of overgeneraization about wing chun happens frequently on forums…IMO.On forums we generally are caught up in our own perceptions.

joy

22

Shaolin

Its clear to me anyway that the simple Shaolin tracings of wing chun is full of gaps and holes.

jpy chaudhuri

23

Joy,

IMHHHHHO,

I think may be the shao lin tracing is not trace deep enough.

1,
Since Jim had gone as far as Gm Fu to got verified the snake, Certainly, the Emei Snake methodolody which embedded in SLT is not Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing.
And we know that the Fujian White Crane people is calling Wing Chun as Fujian White Crane goes Canton.

IMHO,
Shao Lin tracing needs to go as far as the Abbort of Shao Lin to have a say on which DNA of SLT is Shao Lin.

2, all the Chan, Zen…etc idea or concept from the shao lin idea also need a Shao Lin Chan satori patriach to have a say about what the presently believe the – Chan, Zen.. Shao Lin paradigm shift — is it really truelly Chan or the mind seal of Damo?

Or may be the Shao Lin tracing can find more treasure to share with us later? or they can switch direction so to explore into White CRane and Emei…etc. Future is always open. HOwever, one thing we can be sure. IMHO, since the Yip, YSK, Fung, Cho family as Jim pointed out, has the DNA of Emei the 800 years old art, identified by Gm Fu. We can safely said that, our art is not a water down art. it might be missed understood or we might mistake the sequence of processes but not water down, otherwise, Gm Fu will not be able to recognize what the components are. That is an excellent News or Old isnt it.

So, IMHO, the secret is not in the who has more or most original. The key is do we know the step/sequence of the cultivation or the process or our lineage. So stop looking outside. stop creating more new His-story stuffs. But get the steps and sequence iron out, and then ready to evolve as one likes it in one’s own way of expressing the art.

One point I want to bring up here which might irritate lots of people, create opposition or resistance…etc. But it needs to be clear up. otherwise, we all stuck disregard of what is our believe.

And that is about something call “intepretation”.

NOte that in above, I use the word “one’s own way of expressing one’s art” not “one’s intepretation”
Intepretation, was often enough used as a term for face saving. instead of saying “you make up but you dont have a clue on what is going on”.

one of the example is this:

Supporse one is learning about the Snake slide pupar move or Worm fingers… etc
there are SEquence of steps that one needs to reach or attain before one can KNOW a certain thing and be able to handle the action.

Now, one guy can go and watch a video clip of some one doing it and then mimic the posture and make claim about knowing it. The question now come as Does this person really know it and can handle the action? often, people will explain why they do this or that…etc. However, the bottom line question is can one do it WITHOUT thinking and Just do it? if not one doesnt have it. No matter how one reason with the head. ONe is not there. IMHO.

Same with the lower abs breathing. we watch say Gm Yip’s picture or clips…etc no matter where he was the action posture always stay the same. Lower abs breathing and Orbiting. Now, some one can do a demo, a mimic … but that is a different stuff compare with what Gm Yip does.

Thus, I have heard, just to relax the lower back and hip alone can take more then one year, 2 hours a day to work on just standing doing slt while pay attention to the phenomenon of the stance/breathing…etc. So, once the lower back and hip are relax, it is just naturally “relax”. not even need to think about it. the body is that way after we give up hold on or tensing every part. however, to get there one needs to aware of the area, every part connected to it, and even the head and neck which could cause rigid when one wants to relax the lower back.

So, IMHO, in general,
OK of all intepretation is a dead trap. it is a lowering the standard of the art by accepting off mark concept is the reality. often those intepretation shows how naive one is away from a realistic experience.

Now, cerntainly there are different methodology of achive the same out come. But then even with different methodology. similar to IE lower ab breathing, the question of does the anus shrink before the exhale or does the exhale preceed the anus shrink, that is not for INTEPRETATION because one step of the sequence is mistake the rest cannot be attained.

I am sorry that lots might not like to read what I post above. So, please ignore the crazy post above. However, if you serious on your attainment and cultivation. Yes, thus, I have heard, is the anus shrink/lifted before exhale or exhale preceed the anus lifting.. does make a big different one step missed our breathing got stuck and with the stuck up breathing. the body doesnt flow but HOLD on to a certain LACTHING mode, that prevent us to be fast or that prevent the snake or worm to move in a nature manner… So breathing and body interaction does count in a big way…

Just some thoughts.

Peace and prosper

24

Hendrik

A good post.
Joy

25

Thanks Joy.

As said in the Emei 12 post classic, --------Gentlely subdue the enermy within split of an inch.

as an example,
between
raise/lift/ascent anus before exhale or exhale preceed raise/lift/ascent… one way is nature handling and other is forcefull handling. all is in the details, miss an inch lost thousand mile.

That is IMHO the essence of Siu Lien Tau in every part of the body… Awareness, Feltsense, and elegant handling… That need the snake or emei silk worm technology. a different technology compare with the Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing…

Peace and Harmony.

26

The article really doesn’t shed any new light on the history of Cho Ga Wing Chun or Wing Chun in general. Hendrik himself has stated that Yik Kam was responsible for mixing his wing chun with white crane and emei 12 zhang no one is arguing against that fact.

originally posted by Jim Roselando
Throughout the history of the world ancient cultures have used the Snake or Serpent as a symbol for Wisdom and Alchemy. The Ouroborus for the Greeks and Egyptians is similar to the Kundalini Serpent in certain Yoga arts of India. Those who practice Alchemic arts from China to cultivate Zheng Qi may have come across this symbol many times and so would those who research ancient religions.
Interesting take as well as an attempt to bypass the fact that the Dragon is the symbol of wisdom in China. Jim’ article runs exactly parallel to Grandmaster Fu’s webpage http://emeiqigong.com/history.htm
except that Jim tries to tie all of wing chun technology and history into one simple shared term that being the snake. There are just too many other factors going against trying to expand this snake crane idea or Yik Kam SLT to other families of Wing Chun when no evidence for it exists.

Well known, History of Wing Chun has Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai being Senior to Yik Kam and they both trace their Wing Chun which contains Siu Nim Tau/Chum Kiu/Biu Jee back to the Shaolin Temple, that is pretty common knowledge but for those not familiar with why Yik Kam’ story would only apply to his lineage they need look no further than these few facts.

The historical timeline indicates that hendrik is more accurate when he says Yik Kam has left his own signature and interpretation of Wing Chun because 4 seperate lineages of Wing Chun all tell the story differently than Yik Kam. Hung Gun Biu - Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun trace thier origin back to Shaolin.
Dai Dung Fong- Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Trace their origin back to Shaolin.
Chi Sim Weng Chun Trace their origin back to Shaolin.
Wong Wah-Bo Lueng Yee Tai / Yip Man / TWC, Grmaster W.Cheung trace their origin back to Shaolin. All of these lineages report at least 3 generations of snt/ck/bj being passed down before the time of Yik Kam and his version of one long slt.

The Technological Imprint of SNT/CK/BJ is also traced back through the afore mentioned families. The signature of the wooden dummy, the butterfly swords, the long pole and concepts like Tin Yan Dei, Six gate theory and Wing Chun’s well known centerline theory. These are constant reminders of a system design and nature originating from Shaolin.

originally posted by Jim Roselando
Emei Weaponry comes in three forms: Sword, Short Blade (Dagger) and Hand Spike. According to Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong the long weapons are not practical for Emei region. Its location is in the Mountains and very dense. Shorter tools were adapted. When asked about the famed Emei Umbrella methods, Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong said it was not part of the art.
With no long pole or wooden dummy to speak of clearly a case for the junior Yik Kam adapting things outside of wing chun and then passing that knowledge on to the Cho family is the most likely scenario of why his story differs from all of his seniors.
originally posted by Jim Roselando
Across numerous lineages such as Fung, Cho, Yuen, Yip, etc. there is a story about the fusion of Snake & Crane. According to Cho and Yuen family records there is also a story of Grandmaster Miao Shun (Miu Shun) being the person who fused the two arts. Miao Shun was in all likelihood a nickname, and his real identity may never be known, but his work, even after hundreds of years, may still be retained in his signature.
Bringing in varying families and mixing and matching stories is misleading in that the most telling thing about hendrik and Jim’s use of Grandmaster Yip Man is that he too never mentions or gives credit to Emei which means for a period of 300 years 4 different lineages exist that do not acknowledge emei or white crane in their history. That evidence is consistent to this day.

Modern voices of Wing Chun
Yip Man does not acknowledge Emei or Fukian White Crane as a source of Win Chun.
Grandmaster William Cheung does not reference Emei or Fukian White Crane in any of his books or lectures as a source of Wing Chun.
Leung Ting Does not acknowledge Emei or Fukian White Crane as a source of Wing Chun.
Wong Kiu Does not acknowledge Emei or Fukian White Crane as a source of Wing Chun.
Yip Chun Does not acknowledge Emei or Fukian White Crane as a source of Wing Chun.
Chi Sim Weng Chun Does not acknowledge Emei or Fukian White Crane as a source of Weng Chun.
Most telling Grandmster Fu Wei Zhong does not acknowledge Emie 12 Zhang as a source for Wing Chun.

This article provides no new revelations or evidence to anything other than yes Yik Kam did mix his limited knowledge of Wing Chun with other arts before passing it onto the Cho family and Jim was left with more questions than answers after his meeting with the Grandmaster.

More history on this topic.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40240&page=19

27

Hello Tony,

I am not going to repeat our past discussions over and over. Certainly you can believe what feels right for you. Yes. The dragon is “also” a symbol and the Snake Body and Dragon Body both hold similar idea/concept to those who pratice those methods.

The Snake and Crane concept is and has been around WCK for a long long time and accross numerous lineage. This would also be a Combination of Military and Monk as you have often described Wing Chun on this site. :wink: White Crane being the military and Emei Snake being the Monk.

If you are looking for the long pole and dummy then one need not look any further than what wasw mentioned in the article. Snake and Crane. The Crane has the Wooden Dummy and Pole. Check out the attachments:

Foto 1: White Crane WC Lee Kiang with Pole

Foto 2: White Crane Jong

If you wish to discuss your theory more then feel free to do a write up on what you believe was the core components that were ivolved in the art of Wing Chun’s creation.

Regards,

28

Hello,

In case anyone is curious! The actual translations of the Chinese characters from the Emei art is:

Arms like Snake, Fingers like Inch Silk Worm

GM Fu was kind enough to write the characters in my Notebook.

A few years back GM FU was teaching a simplified 12 Zhuang/Emei art called the 18 methods of still and moving Qi Gong. The first of the 18 is Wuji Zhuang! The first actual moving action is the Snake Arms and Inch Silk Finger.

If we took this and extended it out to the centerline and did the action it would look like???

Gotta run!

29

It’s nice to see new theories and ideas debated with intellectual honesty and generosity, because even if one new theory disagrees (or seems to) with other, pre-existing theories, the debate can help everyone attain better perspectives. It would be sad to see WCK forever trapped in a “versus” mode.

Both Shaolin and Emei theories, and their exploration, can be for everyone’s benefit.

BTW-

Yik Kam supposedly did the same WCK as Wong Wah-Bo. What Leung Yee-Tai did remains a mystery as there is no separate Leung Yee-Tai branch (as there is a separate Dai Fa Min Kam branch through Fung Siu-Ching). He just, again supposedly, wrote it down a hundred year earlier or so. (The legendary fusion of Ng Mui and Miu Shun having been done generations before, just like the Yip Man version of the legend).

Doing WCK in 3 shorter sets or 1 longer makes no difference in and of itself. ABC and A B C contain the same information in the same sequence. Content of the set(s) would be a better discussion point.

Senior/Junior is a social station, not a functional/knowledge based one, so this is probably also better framed in terms of content passed down rather than seating order on the junk.

The Dragon is elementally an astonomical/directional marker, part of the cycle of the Celestial Mansion (to keep it simpler than the stem). It’s a symbol of Spring. (Spring being, of course, a very uncommon symbol in WCK :wink: ).

The local Karate school where I live traces it’s lineage back to Shaolin. They do a lot of pinan Kata. ODB, RZA, and the rest of the Wutan Clan trace their lineage back to Asia now, officially, according to the Chappelle show… Tracing lineage is probably more a function of cultural tribute than history, so the idea of focusing on content again seems to raise it’s head.

Not having a long pole or wooden dummy could also be seen as part of the fusion theory. Fishermen boxers in the region had dummies, and boats had poles. In legend, Jee Shim’s dummy and pole were brought into Ng Mui’s system by the Red Junk. Then again, in some legends, Miu Shun was there as well (he even appears in the famous Yip Man pulp novel from HK).

And there are articles in China which mentioned “WCK comes from Fukien through Sichuan”. The story of Ng Mui on Mt. Leung in Yip Man’s history can also be seen as a movement of the art west before it settled in Guangdong.

And if not mentioning something for a long time led to problems in credibility, even entire branches of WCK (most of which were all but completely unknown outside China until the last 10-15 years) would be in a lot of trouble :slight_smile:

Jim - What about the “pidgeon toe”. Grandmaster Fu doesn’t seem to be doing that or the Kim Sut to the same degree as Fatshan WCK. Did you discuss that at all?

Also, was there any parallel in the turning mechanics?

30

Not debating- just thinking-

Some questions and comments-
Hendrik- what do you mean by “orbiting”

Jim- can you expand. paraphrase or restate in some other way what is meant by “worm finger”?

Rene- the GM’s pidgeon toe stance seems to be within the continuum of the ygkym stances… not every one has it narrowly pressed in.

joy chaudhuri

31

Rene,

Yik Kam supposedly did the same WCK as Wong Wah-Bo. What Leung Yee-Tai did remains a mystery as there is no separate Leung Yee-Tai branch (as there is a separate Dai Fa Min Kam branch through Fung Siu-Ching). He just, again supposedly, wrote it down a hundred year earlier or so. (The legendary fusion of Ng Mui and Miu Shun having been done generations before, just like the Yip Man version of the legend).

Doing WCK in 3 shorter sets or 1 longer makes no difference in and of itself. ABC and A B C contain the same information in the same sequence. Content of the set(s) would be a better discussion point.

Senior/Junior is a social station, not a functional/knowledge based one, so this is probably also better framed in terms of content passed down rather than seating order on the junk…

[I]Excellent Points…

IMHO, The interest of discussion here is to investigate what is the facts and thus benifit every WCner in thier training of WCK. Not about taking a position and debate to death forsake of wanting to win. [/I]

Jim - What about the “pidgeon toe”. Grandmaster Fu doesn’t seem to be doing that or the Kim Sut to the same degree as Fatshan WCK. Did you discuss that at all?

[I]According to the specific of the equal shoulder stance classical writing of the 12th Generation Gate Keeper of emei 12 zhuang, Dr. Chou Cien-Chuan the slightly inward pointing of the toes is for the handling of body weight control and handling of both the flow of leg Yin and Yang medirian…

IMHO, some have carried the Pidgeon toe to the extreme today which causing the blockage of the medirians and screw up the weight control. This type of training will not get one into Orbiting…

in the first phase,
knees will slightly bent naturally to cause the relax of the lower body and limb, then in the second phase when the lower back, butt, inner tigh relax , the knees naturally fit into its place… as the Yik Kam Kuen kuit said, " spontaneously follow the nature"

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/wingchun/

scroll down and look at how was the equal shoulder stance of YKS’s brother.

look at what is in that generation, when Orbiting is common practice…
after that generation, lots of things are evolved… [/I]

32

Joy,

Orbiting means one in in YJKYM so nature/ let go the mind/let the breathing flow by itself… that it is similar to the moon “orbiting”. It is dynamic and moving even though might " look" still. In the Yik Kam lineage, this state must be attained otherwise the YJKYM is a clumpsy “dead wood” which look ok but has not much used.

For a better describtion in english, Jim and Pual can comment in this since they have experienced orbit in YJKYM or the arm swing…

33

Certainly you can believe what feels right for you. ------

excellent point. we are discuss about facture evident here instead of Believe which everyone can have thier believe.

Yes. The dragon is “also” a symbol and the Snake Body and Dragon Body both hold similar idea/concept to those who pratice those methods. -------

IMHO, we dont want to be “generalized”. IN Emei 12 zhuang,
“Arms like Snake, Fingers like Inch Silk Worm” is snake and worm.

There is a Dragon set within the 12 zhuang which is training specific topic.

So. IMHO, we better get specific and indentify what is what instead of doing our own generalized “intepretation” which can be miss-leading most of the time.

If you wish to discuss your theory more then feel free to do a write up on what you believe was the core components that were ivolved in the art of Wing Chun’s creation. ---------------------

Yup. Good way to put it. Get the facture evidents and details otherwise, those are just HIS-STORY. Great for entertainment but doesnt go anywhere in cultivation or training.

As I am posting above, " is the Anus ascending preceed the exhale or exhale preceed the anus ascending." one way it is all nature and the otherway is all stuck. eventhought one can make all the theory and claims… about Anus and exhale and lower abs breathing. But can one do it? which preceed which? only the experience knows.

Thus, IMHO, we want to or trying to discuss in that level of facture. otherwise, all the head speculation and none work at all.

As if one want to know if one’s art is Chen taiji related, one goes see Chen Xio-Wang, Emei related one sees Fu Wei Jong, Shao Lin related, one sees the leader monk in Shao Lin . Now we have the feedback from Gm Fu. We also have the confirmation from Fujian White Crane.

Thus, those who believe WCK is from Wudang, or Taiji or Shao LIn needs to get thier feedback from the leader of Wudang, Shao Lin…etc otherwise it is all speculation.

Sorry, I raise the Barr. I think that is needed because we dont want to spend our time on speculation which everyone can made.

Peace

PS: I was watching Judas’ Gosper that Chirst challenge his students on where he is from and who knows him… So challenge is not a bad thing if it is not ego based.

34

Hendrik- on orbiting

Thanks
Differences in language usage. I understand. In good Ip man wing chun-the energy and breath are dynamic also when everything appears to be still.

joy chaudhuri

35

You are welcome.

As you know , there is process, steps, sequence, and states to be follow and attain. That is the direction I am heading to discuss instead of those “you think I think… speculation”. Get right into the states and examine it.

We need to raise the barr start from now on. IMHO

36

Hey Hendrik,
[INDENT]
IMHO, some have carried the Pidgeon toe to the extreme today which causing the blockage of the medirians and screw up the weight control. This type of training will not get one into Orbiting…[/INDENT]

Koo Lo, Yuen Kay-San, Yuen Chai-Wan, Yip Man (Leung Sheung) all Kim Sut until the knees are 1-fist distance. That represents a sampling of WCK in Fatshan and Hokshan going back to around 1900, which isn’t really “today”, but is about 50 year after the Red Junk. While aberation is always a possibility, it would be beneficial to know/understand the reasoning behind it.

Please do let me know about the turning…

37

Hey RR,

I tend to agree with HS with regards to the big heels out and fist clamping. In order to orbit (constanty oscillating) on needs the Yin Yang dynamic equilibrium Ma.

This is to Sink the Yin and Support the Yang.

So, the Inner Thigh’s (for example) can have no tension (yin) and the weight will rest on to the outer or Blade side edge (yang). Even tho we sink down to fist distance the properties should be the above.

GM Fu also use this relationship in his “=” ma. Its the Natural Yin/Yang ma.

Orbiting Ma (taiji call this “swimming on dry land”)

“<—o—>”

Un-Natural Ma (tense inner thigh yang/yang balance)

“—>o<—”

I think ““we”” Over Exaggerate the outward heel clamp as Wing Chun practitioners. The name of our horse is (yee jee “=”) so the design is not heels so far out which will throw off the Ma. Equal is important.

When I look at the old pictures YM and others you can see that they maybe train a bit wider or deeper to strengthen the legs early on but then when you look at any of their foto’s (YM, YKS, YCW, Fung’s etc.) you see them keeping the feet in good position. When the feet go wider than “=” this will cause tension in the Hip and other areas. Blocking off not only Chi flow but bolting the horse into a harder state. So, the snake awareness/Chi monitoring system is important as your body will tell you whats off or not.

As for turning? You know! I never asked him! All the exercises he taught were in the “=” ma of Emei and when he turned left and right he was still in the “=” ma. Sining down a bit as you turn was the only way to maintain the ma but this is my own experience and not GM Fu’s words/teaching.

Gotta run!

:slight_smile:

38

Hey RR,

Just checked out the link you posted. Look at Yuen Cai Wan foto! Check out the “=” ma! And we just thought the old timers were lazy! hahahaha :wink:

Peace,

39

Hello,

Here is the VTM’s opinion on the Snake and Crane article:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1817

IMO, Unfortunately, we need to analzy the type of Ging and Chi their Shaolin “theory” WC art produces and from which art or arts gave birth to that Ging/Chi.

The rest is speculation on “both” parts.

Without technical process of cultivation examined then the discussion wont go far. Most White Crane calls themselves: Shaolin Fukien Crane. Maybe! Just maybe! One of the ancestors in their line was more fond of claiming Shaolin than Shaolin “Crane”/Emei “Snake”.

Yet, claiming Shaolin needs support. GM Fu lists on his Site the differences between Emei, Shaolin and Wudang. We should also be able to do the same in discussion of our arts possible birth/develoment.

Just an opinion.

Peace,

40

Leung Guan Moon

Wing Chun ancestor Leung Guan Moon’s written history:

Wing Chun comes from around 1810 from “snake” and “crane” shape boxing. In Chuanjiao, Fujian, Yim Yee was going to be arrested by the government so he fled with his daughter, Wing-Chun, to hide and sold tofu for a living. His martial arts were healthy, beautiful, and effective and he taught it to Wing-Chun. One day while she was washing clothes by the river she saw a snake and crane fighting. She watched and learned from them and later she mixed the inspiration with her knowledge of Fujian Shaolin styles and made it suit herself.

More clues about the Fusion!