The Way Forward

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=GlennR;1268971]And that was my pint grumble, Keith sees it as personal and I, and many others, don’t

Whilst SR made some good points he did, admittedly , come across as a big crass but, hey, so be it… The
Points he made still stand[/QUOTE]

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !
It’s basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.
I don’t think taking the high road will work because, well lets face it, we are MA and we like to fight.
The main problem here is, as I stated in the beginning, people are spew off their version of reality as the ONLY reality and degrading other peoples AND they have NOTHING to back up their version other than " I say so".
MA are about DOING people. If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don’t say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don’t say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.
Until THAT mindset is the MAIN mindset in this forum, it will be the same drama filled joke that it has been for the last few years.

42

[QUOTE=anerlich;1268973]This is an open forum.

Some people who don’t do WC come in and are rather, er, surprised by the antics of us all here.

I for one don’t mind their suggestions and sometimes their input is excellent. Sanjuro and Knifefighter are/were two good examples.

Not much point wishing WC people would cross train or fight with other stylists when you’re not even going to let them on the forum.

I gave up expecting sensible conversation and useful input here a long time ago (though occasionally I’m pleasantly surprised) and usually just come here for amusement.

It’s just a forum. Not the friggin’ UN.[/QUOTE]

As most of you veteran know, I do have a WC background.
I outgrew WC, not because it was a bad system, its a great system ( and I still use quite a few of its principles, principles that all southern hands have BTW), it was just not a perfect fit for me.
I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.
Listen to me or not, I don’t care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn’t be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.
The problem is that there is a “enabler mindset” of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

43

[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1269013]In all fairness, While KPM and BPWT did drag on …and on …and on over on that other thread re how much classical 'chun was visible in Josh Kaldani’s recent fight, they had a legitimate question: Namely can you effectively use WC that “looks like WC” in MMA competition or not.

I didn’t take that as a personal attack on Alan Orr. In fact the thread began with a lot of respect. Then like always, it degenerated. People on both sides have a hard time accepting the other guy’s right to his own opinion. So what’s the big deal? Argument is interesting. All we are asking for is to maintain a civil tone. And that only can be done if you regulars start exercising your collective influence. If you want to clean this place up a bit, you can. Or not. It’s your call.[/QUOTE]

The answer to the question of can you use wing chun that “looks like WC” cannot be found on a forum in discussion with people who are not fighting. Do you not see that? How can they possibly know?

You may not have taken it as a personal attack on Alan Orr but I can tell you from being involved with boxing trainers and fighters that fighters and trainers have a different perspective than people who question them and their skills from their arm chairs. Here’s the thing this is not an academic question for guys like Orr like it is to most people here. He is out there putting his reputation his livelihood his skill as a trainer on the line. His fighters are doing the same. It is very personal to them. So when they here guys afraid to even put on gloves say things like yeah congrats on winning but that’s really not good wing chun since you are not doing it the way I think it should be done and I think you should do this and that instead you might see why they would not take kindly to it and respect those opinions.

44

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269074]As most of you veteran know, I do have a WC background.
I outgrew WC, not because it was a bad system, its a great system ( and I still use quite a few of its principles, principles that all southern hands have BTW), it was just not a perfect fit for

((( No problem SR. I am not in your lineage but civil discussion across lineages is more than ok with me))

I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.

((True))

Listen to me or not, I don’t care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn’t be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.

((True))

The problem is that there is a “enabler mindset” of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.[/QUOTE]

((True. Plus the often anonymous self selection of members as experts plus the quick retorts without engaging the brain that is part of the nature of quite a few internet forums. While the volume of “martial talk” is less the moderation there is a damper on egos/))

45

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !

This is true. And it is because of people exactly like you who make no effort to be anything but CRASS and RUDE. How will anything ever change?

It’s basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.

I don’t recall anyone saying WCK is “special”. But this is a Wing Chun forum. We talk about Wing Chun here. If you don’t like what is said and don’t practice Wing Chun and take offense at what people say about their Wing Chun and cannot post without being crass and rude…then go elsewhere. Simple fix!

If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don’t say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don’t say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.

I hate to keep pointing out the obvious, but this is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss. That implies “saying” or writing what we think. Its very difficult to “show” anything in such a format and very few people have video footage to share. Heck, even the people that pontificate about “showing” and “proving” what one can do have never bothered to post video footage. Again…discussion forum…we d…I…s…c…u…s…s things here. If you don’t like that, then go elsewhere.

I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.

Yes. I know that. And I know that you should know better. You come onto a thread about the “Way Forward” and your response is designed to offend and inflame any WCK people here. Doesn’t sound to me like you learned much from your years of moderating and going through all the similar drama.

Listen to me or not, I don’t care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn’t be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.

Which is why you starting out with such an inflammatory post? I don’t believe you. I don’t care what you think. You owe no one any allegiance here and they owe you none. There are no friends here. This is an open forum where anyone can say anything they like. So don’t say you are trying to help when you are one of the main people contributing to the problem.

The problem is that there is a “enabler mindset” of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

What I know is that this is a discussion forum, this isn’t youtube. We come here to discuss. When discussions are not conducted in a civil manner, when people post inflammatory statements, when people won’t acknowledge good points that someone else has made, when people feel free to be just as rude and crass and insulting as they like, and when all the people that have good things to say have been chased away by such behavior…THAT is what kills a forum.

46

[QUOTE=KPM;1269081]My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !

This is true. And it is because of people exactly like you who make no effort to be anything but CRASS and RUDE. How will anything ever change?

It’s basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.

I don’t recall anyone saying WCK is “special”. But this is a Wing Chun forum. We talk about Wing Chun here. If you don’t like what is said and don’t practice Wing Chun and take offense at what people say about their Wing Chun and cannot post without being crass and rude…then go elsewhere. Simple fix!

If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don’t say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don’t say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.

I hate to keep pointing out the obvious, but this is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss. That implies “saying” or writing what we think. Its very difficult to “show” anything in such a format and very few people have video footage to share. Heck, even the people that pontificate about “showing” and “proving” what one can do have never bothered to post video footage. Again…discussion forum…we d…I…s…c…u…s…s things here. If you don’t like that, then go elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that you guys are NOT here to discuss, you are here to pontificate and promote your lineages.
I’ve seen this over and over and over.
In this age anyone willing to can SHOW anything they want, we know this for a fact.
Those that don’t show, don’t do it because they simply don’t want to.
I don’t hold all auctioneers to the same standard, not all are able to record and share because many are not part of a school or have retired or are simply doing their own thing and love WC.
I hold those that DO post clips of stuff accountable of posting PRACTICAL and REALISTIC examples of what they are “preaching”.
Hendrick is a prime example, he will post a 20 min video of him pontificating about “snake engine” in WC BUT is unwilling to post even 30 seconds of it ACTUALLY BEING DONE !

That there is a prime example of why this forum has become what it has become.

Too much talk about the 30 deg angle of an elbow and not enough USING that elbow !

47

I know why u wc guys are tend to act like fascistes.The reason is so well known mottos of wc which are pinned to most of yours’ minds.
-designed to overcome shaolin system.
-it has mechanics,its about science,who we are to belittle it.
-there is no better system than wc in the World,cant be and this cant be discussed.
-centerline,you must attack there,or you are not wc.
No offense,i check this part of forum sometimes and most of the quarrels i have seen are seem to be built upon these mottos.

48

The problem is that you guys are NOT here to discuss, you are here to pontificate and promote your lineages.
I’ve seen this over and over and over.

If you don’t like it. Go elsewhere. Simple fix.

In this age anyone willing to can SHOW anything they want, we know this for a fact.
Those that don’t show, don’t do it because they simply don’t want to.

No on here has any obligations to show or prove ANYTHING to ANYONE else. This is an open forum. We are here to discuss…

Hendrick is a prime example, he will post a 20 min video of him pontificating about “snake engine” in WC BUT is unwilling to post even 30 seconds of it ACTUALLY BEING DONE !

You don’t have to watch Hendrik’s videos. You can put Hendrik on the “ignore” mode and never have to read another post by him again.

That there is a prime example of why this forum has become what it has become.

No. The prime example of why this forum has become what it has become was displayed by YOU on your initial posts on this thread. But you don’t seem to get that.

Too much talk about the 30 deg angle of an elbow and not enough USING that elbow !

Uh, again, not to keep stating the obvious…but this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. We come here to discuss just how we are USING that elbow. I’m not using that elbow that way while I’m typing, now am I? :wink:

49

[QUOTE=Rover;1269085]I know why u wc guys are tend to act like fascistes.The reason is so well known mottos of wc which are pinned to most of yours’ minds.
-designed to overcome shaolin system.
-it has mechanics,its about science,who we are to belittle it.
-there is no better system than wc in the World,cant be and this cant be discussed.
-centerline,you must attack there,or you are not wc.
No offense,i check this part of forum sometimes and most of the quarrels i have seen are seem to be built upon these mottos.[/QUOTE]

If you don’t like. Don’t come back. Simple fix.

50

[QUOTE=KPM;1269086]The problem is that you guys are NOT here to discuss, you are here to pontificate and promote your lineages.
I’ve seen this over and over and over.

If you don’t like it. Go elsewhere. Simple fix.

In this age anyone willing to can SHOW anything they want, we know this for a fact.
Those that don’t show, don’t do it because they simply don’t want to.

No on here has any obligations to show or prove ANYTHING to ANYONE else. This is an open forum. We are here to discuss…

Hendrick is a prime example, he will post a 20 min video of him pontificating about “snake engine” in WC BUT is unwilling to post even 30 seconds of it ACTUALLY BEING DONE !

You don’t have to watch Hendrik’s videos. You can put Hendrik on the “ignore” mode and never have to read another post by him again.

That there is a prime example of why this forum has become what it has become.

No. The prime example of why this forum has become what it has become was displayed by YOU on your initial posts on this thread. But you don’t seem to get that.

Too much talk about the 30 deg angle of an elbow and not enough USING that elbow !

Uh, again, not to keep stating the obvious…but this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. We come here to discuss just how we are USING that elbow. I’m not using that elbow that way while I’m typing, now am I? ;)[/QUOTE]

Way forward indeed.
Rest my case.

51

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269090]Way forward indeed.
Rest my case.[/QUOTE]

Well, I hope you at least learned something. It makes very little logical sense to complain about how people choose to represent what they do in a discussion forum and demand that they prove it or back it up in some way. This is not youtube. We are here to talk. It doesn’t make sense to say that you’re being rude and crass and inflammatory because everyone here is rude and crass and inflammatory. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If someone is overstating their case about their Wing Chun, then point it out to them and give examples. Don’t just call them a P*ssy.

52

Let me start off by saying I am not a WC practitioner, although I have sparred with some advanced WC guys. I respect the art of WC, it just wasn’t my cup of tea.

Now, how many guys have had a teacher or a coach (in MA or otherwise) who (with good reason) chewed you out? In my youth, I went through a period of arrogance, and one of my teachers was well aware of it. Finally one day, he took me aside and basically read me the riot act; among other things, he told me I was no better nor worse than anyone else, and that I needed to grow up. He said some other choice things in his verbal dressing-down that I won’t go into. It was hard to stand there listening to him, and felt a bit humiliating. In my mind I felt defiant, but later on, as I had time to really self-examine about it, I knew that everything he said was 100% TRUE. There wasn’t one thing he said that I could have refuted or honestly seen as malicious. He said it the way he did because he wanted me to WAKE UP. And to this day I remain thankful to him for that.

Civility always feels better, but sometimes people need a kick in the pants. Sometimes “Why don’t we all just get along” doesn’t work. Sure, SR said a couple of harsh things, but IMO he didn’t say anything that isn’t true for some of the people on the forum. If what SR said offends you, have you ever stopped to consider if what he said is true? Was he trying to be malicious, or was he trying to wake people up? SR is definitely NOT a troll.

Oh, and BTW, nobody complains when WC practitioners post in the Southern forum, the main forum, the Shaolin forum, the MMA forum, or any others. Because everybody can have something of value to contribute, if they choose to (except malicious trolls, of course). So take what I have to add or not. And if what I had to contribute here is offensive, or it’s not worthy of consideration because I’m not a WC person, that’s your choice. You can learn things from many people and sources you may not have thought of, if you remove the blinders. This is MA after all. It isn’t holding hands around the campfire singing “Kumbayah”. Part of MA is developing a thicker skin.

53

Thanks for your contribution Jimbo. Funny how the only people that have something to say here aren’t even Wing Chun people.

Now, how many guys have had a teacher or a coach (in MA or otherwise) who (with good reason) chewed you out?

No one here is my teacher, my coach, or my friend. No one here has the right or responsibility to “chew me out.” What may be acceptable from someone you know and respect is simply rude and impolite from someone you don’t know.

Sure, SR said a couple of harsh things, but IMO he didn’t say anything that isn’t true for some of the people on the forum. If what SR said offends you, have you ever stopped to consider if what he said is true? Was he trying to be malicious, or was he trying to wake people up? SR is definitely NOT a troll.

Well Ok. Let’s look at what he said.

they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas
get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).
Maybe you WC guys should trade in the sand in your vagina for a pair of balls
Everyone else sees you guys as the armchair warriors and drama queens that you are.
You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

More than a “couple” of harsh things, don’t you think? So you think its all true, do you? All the name calling…accurate? If you don’t like what is said in this forum, you don’t have come here either. If you can honestly support things like SR said above, then you are also part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Oh, and BTW, nobody complains when WC practitioners post in the Southern forum, the main forum, the Shaolin forum, the MMA forum, or any others. Because everybody can have something of value to contribute, if they choose to

And no one complains here when a non-WC guy posts, as long as he has something of value to contribute.

So take what I have to add or not.

Thanks, but you didn’t add much. Again, it is not acceptable to be rude and crass and disrespectful and impolite just because “everyone is” or because you are “trying to make a point.” Thinking that way is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Part of MA is developing a thicker skin.

Part of MA is learning to treat people respectfully. In CMA circles it is known as “Mo Duk.” To come here and write things from a keyboard that you would never say to someone face to face is a bit wrong and shows bad “Mo Duk.” Don’t you think?

54

KPM,

I neither like nor dislike what goes on in this forum. I simply gave an opinion based on observations and experience. I was attempting to help. Clearly what I said means nothing to you, and that’s fine with me. And I thought my post was pretty civil. I thought my analogy would be clear.

You seem quick to take offense at a lot of things. I understand being passionate about something, but do you not see a pattern here? Isn’t part of wu de (mo duk) also about developing a calm mind in the face of conflict and adversity…in this case, opinions and personalities that differ (widely) from your own?

55

:smiley: There are 3 topics of discussion in the World of Wing Chun that require verbal etiquette and constraint : 1) centerline strategy. 2) usefulness of Chi Sao. 3) The Way Forward, or even suggesting there may be such a thing.

56

I neither like nor dislike what goes on in this forum. I simply gave an opinion based on observations and experience. I was attempting to help. Clearly what I said means nothing to you, and that’s fine with me.

Your opinion was essentially “yeah, what he said!” Thank you. But that doesn’t help much.

And I thought my post was pretty civil.

Yes. Your post was civil and I thank you for that. But you also tried to justify what SR said, which was not at all civil. If you read what I have written here, that has been my theme. But you and SR and Frost don’t seem to think that it is an important theme. So be it. I don’t care. But don’t expect me to agree with your seeming acceptance of rude and impolite behavior when used “to make a point.”

You seem quick to take offense at a lot of things. I understand being passionate about something, but do you not see a pattern here? Isn’t part of wu de (mo duk) also about developing a calm mind in the face of conflict and adversity…in this case, opinions and personalities that differ (widely) from your own?

I will refer you back to post #34 on this very thread. And I will continue to put forth that the “way forward” is to treat each other with respect.

57

[QUOTE=KPM;1269087]If you don’t like. Don’t come back. Simple fix.[/QUOTE]

You are not able to take even slightest criticism,huh Mr Hypocrite?

58

[QUOTE=KPM;1269091]Well, I hope you at least learned something. It makes very little logical sense to complain about how people choose to represent what they do in a discussion forum and demand that they prove it or back it up in some way. This is not youtube. We are here to talk. It doesn’t make sense to say that you’re being rude and crass and inflammatory because everyone here is rude and crass and inflammatory. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If someone is overstating their case about their Wing Chun, then point it out to them and give examples. Don’t just call them a P*ssy.[/QUOTE]

P u s s y? No… whiney little b i t c h … yes

Honestly Keith, get over yourself

59

I totally agree with KPM that people shouldn’t post things they wouldn’t say face to face, but that’s the reality of the internet. Not just here, but everywhere, read the comments on Youtube or a Yahoo news story, no matter what the subject.
Ironically, you seem the same sort of behavior from people with real reputations, who use their real names here. I am almost certain they wouldn’t speak in the same manner in face to face setting. Aliases and anonymity seem to have little to do with it, people just feel like they can say anything they want from a keyboard; and often do.
I guess it is what it is, sometimes it’s ridiculous, sometimes it’s entertaining.

60

[QUOTE=Rover;1269127]You are not able to take even slightest criticism,huh Mr Hypocrite?[/QUOTE]

You can criticize me all you want. I don’t care. But do it politely. Don’t call me names. That’s not criticism. That’s slander.