[QUOTE=Blacktiger;711688]Far out 3 years for a black belt is quick :eek:[/QUOTE]
Personally I think it’s should be the minimum. And that only if the students in question really, really works hard.
I do think that in my opinion they award belts a little too quickly in my school. I’ve been the program for almost a year now and I’ve been a brown belt for a month and a half. I’m just now actually getting some of the basics down to where I can move on to other things…However that’s neither here nor there. I really don’t take a whole lot of stock in what color belt you wear…it’s what you know.
If I was a sifu I would try and present myself in a humble manner and dress a certain way to make the envornment we are training in traditional and peaceful. Thats just how I would be.
Boulderdawg-The opposite can be true. You can have a friendly, respectable young person and a real jerk that’s older then him. People are people, regardless of age.
EarthDragon-Bowing to each other and drill sergeant style teaching are two different things. It is the latter which I do not agree with. As for deserving training, you get what you put in. You work hard, you get results. That’s the great thing about Kung Fu. In most cases you pay the teacher. Therefore, you deserve to be taught.
"I find all this bowing and elaborate ceremony as unnecessary. I show common courtesy to all at the school but I really fail to see the need to go through some big ritual. I know I don’t need MA training to learn respect or honor. I learned that growing up."
hmmmmm. perhaps you didn’t.
“In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he’s been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt.”
This is exactly why it must be taught in the class. This should never happen in a good,traditional school. Personally, I don’t tolerate egos in my school. There is no place for it. They don’t get through my door. I have an interview, first on the phone, then in person, then an intro class. If they show signs of attitude, we simply say we don’t have any openings at this time and we will call them when we do. However, it usually isn’t an issue, as most of my students come through referrals. If a student brings someone in, they vouch for their character.
As far as stating that since you are paying HIM, you deserve to be taught whatever you like. This puts your Sifu on the level of a waiter, with your Mo-Kwoon being a resteraunt and you pick and choose what you will and will not be taught.
Call me a dinosaur, but I tell my students that they are simply buying a membership to the Mo-Gwoon. What do they get? Nothing, but a roof over their heads, and a place to train with quality instruction. Everything else they have to work for. It must be earned-with sweat, and dedication. Just like on a ranch or a farm-“You don’t work, you don’t eat”
I suppose I am a throwback to a time gone by. I don’t have a huge glitzy school,no fancy uniforms which change with each level, or upsell membership, no patches,karate kid headbands. Just a school t-shirt and sash and pants. Oh, and we wear wrestling boots. We also spar with them on as well.
BUT-my students are respectful,humble,and hard workers. The younger ones must maintain a specific grade point average, and most of them are honor roll students. The parents think this is the best thing that has happened to their kids, and the adults bring their kids to train as well. Scoff if you want-it’s been working so far.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;711745]"I find all this bowing and elaborate ceremony as unnecessary. I show common courtesy to all at the school but I really fail to see the need to go through some big ritual. I know I don’t need MA training to learn respect or honor. I learned that growing up."
hmmmmm. perhaps you didn’t.
“In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he’s been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt.”
This is exactly why it must be taught in the class. This should never happen in a good,traditional school. Personally, I don’t tolerate egos in my school. There is no place for it. They don’t get through my door. I have an interview, first on the phone, then in person, then an intro class. If they show signs of attitude, we simply say we don’t have any openings at this time and we will call them when we do. However, it usually isn’t an issue, as most of my students come through referrals. If a student brings someone in, they vouch for their character.
As far as stating that since you are paying HIM, you deserve to be taught whatever you like. This puts your Sifu on the level of a waiter, with your Mo-Kwoon being a resteraunt and you pick and choose what you will and will not be taught.
Call me a dinosaur, but I tell my students that they are simply buying a membership to the Mo-Gwoon. What do they get? Nothing, but a roof over their heads, and a place to train with quality instruction. Everything else they have to work for. It must be earned-with sweat, and dedication. Just like on a ranch or a farm-“You don’t work, you don’t eat”
I suppose I am a throwback to a time gone by. I don’t have a huge glitzy school,no fancy uniforms which change with each level, or upsell membership, no patches,karate kid headbands. Just a school t-shirt and sash and pants. Oh, and we wear wrestling boots. We also spar with them on as well.
BUT-my students are respectful,humble,and hard workers. The younger ones must maintain a specific grade point average, and most of them are honor roll students. The parents think this is the best thing that has happened to their kids, and the adults bring their kids to train as well. Scoff if you want-it’s been working so far.[/QUOTE]
Your school sounds like a great place.
I think that maybe your attitude is the one that needs work. It seems that general everyday resepct that we show all people (parents, sons and daughters, co-workers, teachers or even just people we meet on the street) is not good enough for you. To assume that somehow my parents (and from your indication, most American parents) are not teaching there children respect and honor is highly arrogant on your part. I know I would not want my children attending your school. If you made certain demands; such as wanting to know my child’s GPA or private things about their lifestyle you would be told it was none of your business.
Also, the idea of picking and chosing your students is elitist and snobbish in our society. I would advise you to be careful. In this country you simply cannot refuse service to someone because “they show signs of attitude”. You might find yourself on the wrong end of a discrimination lawsuit one of these days.
Finally, I never said I wanted to “pick and choose” what I learn. However if I pay my hard earned money for top notch instruction then that’s what I expect.
actually, boulderdawg, a sifu is more than allowed to pick and choose whoever he sees fit to take as a student and he doesn’t have to tolerate one minute of anything that is contradictory to the way he wants to do things.
that’s the way it is. It is not a pay a fee get a service type thing it is a learning path that is unlike pretty much any other. It is exclusive and at many points it is very elite.
those who endure, can be easily seen in a crowd of pay for service types or what have you.
a “me first” attitude will get you nowhere and get you nothing in a traditional kungfu school and if that doesn’t suit you, I wouldn’t worry about it because you’re not likely to get any anyway. the door is closed to you at the onset.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;711754]actually, boulderdawg, a sifu is more than allowed to pick and choose whoever he sees fit to take as a student [/QUOTE]
I don’t know where you live but in the United States this is not true. If this guy runs a school and advertises for students he has to accept whoever has the money and accepts the rules of the school.
It’s a business like any other. If you refuse service to anyone you had better have a better reason than “I don’t like his attitude”.
From what I understand in a “traditional” Kung Fu school the masters would beat the kids to make them conform. The owner of my school related a story about a recent trip to China where a sufi beat an eight year old kid with a cane!..and this was modern day!:eek:
[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;711758]I don’t know where you live but in the United States this is not true. If this guy runs a school and advertises for students he has to accept whoever has the money and accepts the rules of the school. [/QUOTE]
WRONG!
He doesn’t have to accept anybody. With your line of thinking everybody who has the money to attend college would get in regardless of their GPA.
He can pick and choose to his hearts content. Now if he is refusing service to people based on their race, color, religion, or national origin, then that’s a different story.
“To assume that somehow my parents (and from your indication, most American parents) are not teaching there children respect and honor is highly arrogant on your part”
BD, I won’t argue with you. I don’t know you so I would not assume anything about yur parents. But as far as the rest of your statement, yes.
I have been teaching for over twenty years, and have two children of my own. I have seen every type of parent and child, between my experience with the schools, my kids’ friends,and what has walked through my door. And YES, parents, and teachers are not teaching respect and honor.
A child develops his opinions and viewpointsand VALUES from their enviornment. Their first "teachers’ are their parents. Then they start to socialize with other children, in pre-school, elementary school, etc. These other children also have been “taught” by their parents as well.People start to gravitate towards like minded individuals-which become their peer group, and share the same values. People will gravitate or degenerate to the group they are with, like boats in a rising or ebbing tide.
Who are the role models we grow up with now? Years ago, kids wanted to become President. Nowadays, politicians are crooks, liers and theives, Priests are kid-touchers,pro atheletes are criminals and drug addicts,rock starts are gangstas, police are corrupt.
So who is left to stand as role models? Why do you think that traditional schools have a creed? Yun Yee Do Duk-Compassion,Loyalty,Virtue and Morality.
These are ideals that many of us still hold dear and try to live by, and set examples for the students we teach-young and old alike.
Hohk Yun, Hohk Yee, Hohk Gung-Fu
-learn compassion and loyalty before learning Gung-Fu.
Jun Jo, Jun Si, Jun Do-Duk.
-Honor your ancestors, Honor Sifu, Honor the path of Virtue and Morality.
"If you are able to accomplish the Art, be Humble.
If you meet a Student and you know he is an evil person;
then you would not teach him even for 10,000 pieces of Gold.
And if he is not Righteous and has no Honour,
You would not teach him even if he were your Relative.
But if he is Righteous and has Honour,
You should teach him
even if he is a Stranger to you and has no Money. "
-this was quoted from Jook Lum SPM creed.
First, If A Person Opens A Commercial School He Has To Basically Take In Any Type Of Student That Is Paying The Kind Of Money He Needs To Continue Operating His School. This Separates This Kind Of Sifu From The More Private Or Small School Ones.
As A Sifu Who Doesn’t Have To Pay Rent, Have Insurance, Or Anything Like That…i Have The Right To Pick And Choose Who I Will Personally Train. The Things I Look Out For Is If The Person Interested In Learning From Me Will He Or She Benefit Me Or Cause Me Trouble.
I Don’t Like Teaching Someone Who Only Wants To Come In One Day OUT Of A 4 day A Week Class Schedule. It Is My Right To Stop Or Deny Teaching Someone Like That. What I Do With My Own School Is My Own Business.
I Look For Things In A Potential Student, And If Any Of That Conflicts With What I’m Trying To Accomplish Then I Do What I Gotta Do.
So To Be Real, Yes, A Private Martial Art Teacher Can Pick And Choose, While The Commercial One Has To Accept Anyone With Money In Their Hands. On The Other Hand, If The Teacher Already Has A Good Number Of Students And Things Are Running Smoothly, He Can In Fact Refuse Or Deny Any Future Students Based On The Standards He Set For His School.
The thing is, with many commercial schools you are a customer. Therefore, an owner of a commercial school that is more a businessman then a traditional sifu cannot have the same expectations from his students as a traditional sifu can. This is only fair.
hskwarrior,
What do you look for in a potential student?
[B]In our school we have an 18 year old, who has the attitude of a little snotnose brat, yet he’s been in the program for about 3 years and has a black belt. Also in our school we have plenty of students in their 30s, 40s and 50s who have not been in the program as long. If you think these older students should treat this kid as an elder then, in my opinion, your sense of giving respect is warped!
>>>>My teacher owes me nothing???<<<<
Then he sure as hell better give me all that money back that I paid him.[/B]
you said it all… if you school promotes a BB in 3 years and you trained for a year and a half and you are a brown level FIND A NEW SCHOOL. thats ridiuclous to say the least. your payment means nothing monatary valu is whats wrong with most of the so -called training halls in this county, just becsue you pay for something you think you deserve the right for anything else except for teaching, if you dont like the rules then quit!
I have refused hundreds of walk ins based on attitude, I dont need the money so badly that I will comprimise the integrity of my self, students of my kwon. I have the right to choos whome ever and whenever i teach.
You have the option to do this because you do not run a commercial school. You require students be respectful and hard working. However, you don’t get nuts with lofty character ideals. In my opinion, many people get the idea of character building in martial arts wrong. A kwoon isn’t a morality clinic. Your character changes when you train hard and improve yourself. You become self disciplined and have greater self-awareness. These characteristics then carry over to other aspects of your life. It’s as simple as that. A sifu shouldn’t aim to turn a student into Dudley Do Right.
see, i stay down to earth, and up with the times so i can relate to my younger students.
however, out here is san fran it’s important to know how to defend yourself, so i do train my students to handle their business if the occasion arises.
however, i do want my students to become outstanding citizens, but i will not interfere with their lives outside of gung fu. as gung fu people, i feel they should present themselves in a positive light, but to also emit if there’s going to be trouble not to mess with them.
here’s another example, one of my older (timewise) students got busted with a pound of weed in his car while wearing our school jacket. I told my sifu about what happened and my sifu advised me to let that student go. the reason being is that by getting busted with all that weed while wearing our jacket he brought negative attention to us.
the only thing i try to pass on to my students is what ever they do in life represents me. if they get in trouble i look bad. but if they look good i look good and so does our school.
The xia, you point echoes with appluase… EVERY SCHOOL should have the same point of view when accepting new students not just Hskwarrior’s this is the problem with the crap schools out there that teach it.Commercial or not they should have a certain level of dignity and respect and screeneing to weed out the jerks no matter how much moneyt they have!
Hell if that were the case this forum would have nothing but intelligent, respectful conversation between martial artists and other martial artists. Instead its like high school sometimes.
