The Role Of Stance trainning....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
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[QUOTE=Becca;755298]Yes, it does. Not to feed RD’s ego, but I have been told by many of my grappling partners that they know when I’m working my KF stance training by how hard it is to throw me. I root better when I keep up on the stances.[/QUOTE]

Naw, it doesn’t. Stances are definately the reason you’re defending throws better, but not because of structure, rooting, or alignment. There’s better ways to get that stuff.

Structure, alignment, and rooting all depend on incoming force. After all, you need something to align against, a force being applied against your structure, something for the root to connect to. If you haven’t, i recommend reading Mike Sigman. The guy can be an @ss, but he knows his stuff and explains it beautifully. Tim Cartmell breaks it down pretty good as well.

Stances are isometric in nature. Here’s a good definition of what that means:

Isometric Contraction—Muscle Actively Held at a Fixed Length

A third type of muscle contraction, isometric contraction, is one in which the muscle is activated, but instead of being allowed to lengthen or shorten, it is held at a constant length. An example of an isometric contraction would be carrying an object in front of you. The weight of the object would be pulling downward, but your hands and arms would be opposing the motion with equal force going upwards. Since your arms are neither raising or lowering, your biceps will be isometrically contracting.

The force generated during an isometric contraction is wholly dependant on the length of the muscle while contracting. Maximal isometric tension (Po) is produced at the muscle’s optimum length, where the length of the muscle’s sarcomeres are on the plateau of the length-tension curve.

This is why you want thighs parallel to the floor on a horse. It stretches the quadricep the most. If you start reading the studies, you’re gonna find that isometrics tend to build strength at the ends of the muscle, but not throughout the belly like lifting weights does. Thus, the infamous “tendon strength” you hear so much mysterious babble about.

You use this stuff whenever you perform a motion that requires you to tense a muscle without flexing. changing directions quickly while running, shooting a jump shot, blocking in football, and yes, blocking a throw. That’s what your grappling partners are picking up on.

If you train right, you can get all the results you need in under 3 minutes 3-4 times a week. Work it in to your daily stretching routine if you want, but don’t make it out to be more than what it is, a training tool. Holding a proper stance for over 5 or 10 minutes is kinda like bench pressing 700 pounds. It can be done, but if you wont have time to train much else if that’s your goal.

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Imo

Becca and RD are standing in the incorrect.

Water Dragon spent a short time standing in the incorrect and now owns the correct.

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I owe someone an apology. Ling Hou posted what I was trying to say, in a better way for a CMA board too. Everyone needs to go back and read that post. That is exactly how I was taught stance training.

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[QUOTE=Water Dragon;755374]Naw, it doesn’t. Stances are definately the reason you’re defending throws better, but not because of structure, rooting, or alignment. [/QUOTE]

I stopped reading after this…are you sure?

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If this helps anyone, here is what I would consider a ‘proper ma bu’

http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference/horse2.jpg

This is not:

http://www.dekungfu.com/images/sifu/Horse%20Stance.jpg

Holding the first picture for 1 minute will give infinitely better results than holding the second for ten minutes. Try both, you’ll feel the difference immediately.

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I’m confused. Are we talking about horse only as an exercise? That first photo is a nice exercise, but a horrible stance. I tend to keep the two (exercise vs. utility) separate. I don’t even use horse as my isometric exercise anymore.

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[QUOTE=Ravenshaw;755532]I’m confused. Are we talking about horse only as an exercise? That first photo is a nice exercise, but a horrible stance. I tend to keep the two (exercise vs. utility) separate. I don’t even use horse as my isometric exercise anymore.[/QUOTE]

Well yeah. I’ve never learned stances as direct fighting stances like a lot of people seem to do. You do very horselike things whenever you drop to block a throw, or go in for any type of hip throw, or even throwing drop elbows a la Muay Thai. But I never try to literally do the stance, that would get me thrown quick. Most of what I get from stancework I use in footwork and entries. I have a helluva reaching O Soto from doing Cat Stance. But I’m using it only as a transition as I reach in and hook his leg with mine.

And to answer the structure question, try this. Take a cat stance, 95 % back weighted. Get the high as close to parallel as possible. You should be lightly uncomfortable, but not forcing. Put your right hand on the wall and try to 'push into the wall with your back foot. Maintain that connection. That’s your P’eng path and that’s where structure and alignment come into play.

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This is why you want thighs parallel to the floor on a horse. It stretches the quadricep the most. If you start reading the studies, you’re gonna find that isometrics tend to build strength at the ends of the muscle, but not throughout the belly like lifting weights does. Thus, the infamous “tendon strength” you hear so much mysterious babble about.

Reply]
Wow, your time in the Chinese arts hasn’t taught you much has it? I really figured you’d actually know somethig comming form the background you do.

First, building strength at the “Ends” of the muscles? LOL I am actually shocked you belive crap like that in this day and age. Dude, you can’t build ONE part of a muscle, or the other. EVERY exercise developes the entire muscle, as well as the joints and bones it’s connected to. You cannot put a load ONLY on the neds of a muscle, and have what is inbetween be soft. Like every thing else, Holding developes the whole muscle…let me gues, you still believe in Upper & Lower Abbs too .. don’t you?..

As for your pictures, no wonder you are so misinformed about what Stances do, those are the worst stances I have ever seen. You are ONLY supposed to go that low, when you can go that low correctly, with a tucked tailbone, stright spine rounded shoulders, and asunk chest (Do you even remember those corrections?)

Loook at my avatar, see how the back is? Tail bone is tucked, shoulders are rounded, chest is sunk. THAT is how you are supposed to hold your stances. It’s way harder than the pathetic examples you posted, and you can’t go low if you can’t maintain those requirements.

You start high, and go ONLY as deep as you can maintain the requirements, and then slowly over a long period of time you can sink lower, and lower. eventually you cna get the thighs parelle, but when you do, your structure is correct, and you are building tremendious rooting abilities. You also need to be able to move through those stances and maintian the structure all through the motion…holding the stance is just the first part of it. That is why Taiji guys move so slow. It’s to make sure they can maintain the requirements built in the stances through the transitions.

In training like this, the longer you can hold, the better.

In the silly Chung Moo Quan stance you posted, you are wasteing your time doing it at all, you’d be better off hitting the leg press machine…

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And to answer the structure question, try this. Take a cat stance, 95 % back weighted. Get the high as close to parallel as possible. You should be lightly uncomfortable, but not forcing. Put your right hand on the wall and try to 'push into the wall with your back foot. Maintain that connection. That’s your P’eng path and that’s where structure and alignment come into play.

Reply]
Yup, but you are never going to get it with the stances you posted above. You have to do it like the way I am in my Avatar.

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All right, Bro. I disagree with you, and you disgree with me. There’s no point in either of us continuing to babble about this.

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In a sense Royal your right that there is just the one muscle, but and I am not talking for Water here, that strength training with isometric contractions prodcues large but highly angle-specific adaptations

I think its these angel specific adaptions people are talking about. Either way I believe your far better off hitting free weights and using conventional modern training for legs power, squats, deads, lunges.

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Black Jack, I was reading on article a while back on strength training for athletes. The author recommended using isometrics for about 30 % of your exercises. I basically do a horse stance, and a cat stance, very low for my lower body, and for upper body, I lower myself halfway in a pul up positon and hold, and do the same with dips. I’m just coming back off being sick, but I can feel the difference under the bar already. Try it for a couple weeks at the end of your workout. It takes about 5-7 minutes at the end of a session. It works better after you’ve already smoked your body.

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Try it for a couple weeks at the end of your workout. It takes about 5-7 minutes at the end of a session. It works better after you’ve already smoked your body.

I will give it a whirl, I am heading out to the gym in about a half hour. Sounds kinda like what I do between sets of bench but with pushups and static holds.

The remark about stance training is not to degrade any form of excercise in specific, excercise is always a good thing, its just about people doing this very drawn out stance holding that you tend to see, when you look at the intense time some invest on this training, I think on a contextual scale it might be better for them to devote it to weight training.

Cheers,

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I think it’s better to do both. Law of diminishing returns. If I do some stance holding, I get a lot of benefit. If I do some weight training, I get a lot of benefit, If I stretch regularly I get a lot of benefit. The more I focus on each, the less return I get. So I figure if I do a little of all 3, I’m maximazing my training time. (and I don’t have near as much as I’d like) So far, I’m very pleased with the results.

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I generally switch off, one session i hold, the next I do a more modern method.

I do mix it up too, like when I do my circute, I will do 4 exercises, pullups, pushups, a core exercise, and a back therapy exercise (I added that, the circute was originaly only 3). I do 3 sets, on the third set, I do a holding version of everything. I willl hold a pull up like WD does, I do a pushup hold thhat is similar to holding the ball in Taiji, only laying down on the arms to build the strructure. This one is really tough because you have to really struggle to maintain the requirements. The core training is a Hollow hold from my daughter’s gymnastcs system..also a structure building exercise. It’s really good, so i added it in. And last, I hold a back therapy exercise.

Once I have done all the sets of 4 exercises, I do them one more time at half or 2/3s the reps. It ends up being 6 sets of 4 exercises. Each set is a different version of the exercise. For example, the first is standard pushups (Or a bench press when I’m lifting), the next set would be triangle pushups, and the third was origiannll circle pushups, but I am laying on the ball right now instead.

The only odd ball is the back therapy exercises, I keep the first 3 sets the same exercise and then mix it up in the second 3 sets. The back therapy exercises are also the only ones I don’t drop the number of reps in the second 3 sets. They are generally easier for me and i sometimes add weights to my arms when i do them.

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I think it’s better to do both. Law of diminishing returns. If I do some stance holding, I get a lot of benefit. If I do some weight training, I get a lot of benefit, If I stretch regularly I get a lot of benefit. The more I focus on each, the less return I get. So I figure if I do a little of all 3, I’m maximazing my training time. (and I don’t have near as much as I’d like) So far, I’m very pleased with the results.

Reply]
I have found similar. I tend to focus more on one or the other for cycles, then shift the focus to another for a cycle as soon as I see the returns diminishig. I condition more in winter, and do more cardio in the summer for example.

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In a sense Royal your right that there is just the one muscle, but and I am not talking for Water here, that strength training with isometric contractions prodcues large but highly angle-specific adaptations

Reply]
I think that has to do with the muscle groups kicking in that are supporting the main action. Thta is why you don’t only hold a horse stance, you hold a variety of stances.

I think its these angel specific adaptions people are talking about. Either way I believe your far better off hitting free weights and using conventional modern training for legs power, squats, deads, lunges.

Reply]
If your goal is raw strength, yes, you are right. Stances don’t seem to build much strength once you can hold them past a minute or two…it’s all muscular endurance after that. You do get better structural alignement, and a greater, and greater resistance to haveing it compromised the longer you hold though. That translates into being able to resist takedowns, as many takedowns require the structure to be compromised first, before they will work..

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[QUOTE=Water Dragon;755374]… If you train right, you can get all the results you need in under 3 minutes 3-4 times a week. Work it in to your daily stretching routine if you want, but don’t make it out to be more than what it is, a training tool…[/QUOTE]
Or wandering up and down the warehouse doing stance training, duck walk and other things most people quit doing in grade school. Man, do I get some odd looks. :smiley:

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lol. You need to videotape yourself doing that and let Master Killer post it on the main forum.

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[QUOTE=Water Dragon;755537]Well yeah. I’ve never learned stances as direct fighting stances like a lot of people seem to do…[/QUOTE]

Sad, sad, sad. No wonder why you don’t realize the value of stance work.:frowning: