The response to the T bull---- thread

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I’m sorry, Pacman, but this post of yours is sooooo to the point that I just had to steal it and make a thread out of it. You cover basically the whole gamut here with this:
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"Terence,

if you have read my posts you would see that i do agree with you on certain things.

as i have said many times, the majority of how WC and TCMA is taught is BS. bottom line they do not learn to apply the techniques through fighting. they teach sticky hands first and SLT…and then just do that for 10 years and then expect to know how to fight.

or, they fight with pure aggression and no skill and just front kick chain punch

so we really do not differ too much on the training aspect except that i believe you need to do other things than just start fighting (certain drills etc that you hate)

i do not disagree that we need to train functionally, i disagree with your assertion that all TCMA training is not functional. training is determined by each individual sifu and over the years TCMA training in general has been watered down across the board.

when you say things like this to me, ‘Is simultaneous blocking and striking high percentage? If you haven’t gone and sparred with good boxers you can’t know’…is when you really look like a pompous fool.

not only do you not know what i have or can do, you are automatically inferring that you have it all figured out. this is why people think that you think you are the supreme fighter. do you really wonder why we are calling for evidence of your superior fighting knowledge?"
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***ANYBODY WANT TO COMMENT UPON, OR ADD ANYTHING, TO THIS?

Now you can bet that Terence (and probably Dale) will respond to this thread, but I’m very interested in hearing from the rest of you. What do you think of Pacman’s post?

2

dont particularly like T’s ramblings, but i have to stick up for him here

he does always say that chi sau etc has its place, but only up to a certain skill level. However, this does sound like he is inferring ‘enlightenment’ i agree :smiley:

3

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;951309]
not only do you not know what i have or can do, you are automatically inferring that you have it all figured out. this is why people think that you think you are the supreme fighter. do you really wonder why we are calling for evidence of your superior fighting knowledge?"
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***ANYBODY WANT TO COMMENT UPON, OR ADD ANYTHING, TO THIS?

Now you can bet that Terence (and probably Dale) will respond to this thread, but I’m very interested in hearing from the rest of you. What do you think of Pacman’s post?[/QUOTE]

Terence’s response was perfect. Show the evidence of ANYONE doing it the way you are saying it should be done.

What’s funny to me is that the only evidence you can supply is that of what most of you guys call “sloppy” WC.

There doesn’t seem to be any “real” WC being done except by each of you in the confines of your private studios where there is never any video equipment around.

And you want to know the funniest part… I’m about the only one who gives props to the WC guys who are really out there mixing it up. Most of the WC guys say “Oh they are doing it sloppy Caveman style”, when the fact is, that’s the way it is going to look when you try to stick to the WC “principles”.

Think we are wrong and want to shut us up? Show us the evidence of someone doing it differently.

4

Not true at all. I’ve said a bunch of good things about Alan Orr’s student, Aaron Baum, on a recent thread; and of course, I’ve always given props to Rick Spain. And to Keith Mazza’a students whose competition vids where posted by Phil Redmond.

5

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951410]Terence’s response was perfect. Show the evidence of ANYONE doing it the way you are saying it should be done.

What’s funny to me is that the only evidence you can supply is that of what most of you guys call “sloppy” WC.

There doesn’t seem to be any “real” WC being done except by each of you in the confines of your private studios where there is never any video equipment around.

And you want to know the funniest part… I’m about the only one who gives props to the WC guys who are really out there mixing it up. Most of the WC guys say “Oh they are doing it sloppy Caveman style”, when the fact is, that’s the way it is going to look when you try to stick to the WC “principles”.

Think we are wrong and want to shut us up? Show us the evidence of someone doing it differently.[/QUOTE]

why would we supply evidence of what we think should be done and then call it sloppy and “caveman” like?

what you said makes no sense.

but regarding “sloppy” and “caveman” fighting and how you like it, you are probably referring to the comments regarding this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krg4k8uB4E8

my response to your response is, “well if you have ever fought quality competent fighters you would realize the difference between agression and technique”

since you have it all figured out, please tell me what WC principle those in the video adheres to

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[QUOTE=Pacman;951452]why would we supply evidence of what we think should be done and then call it sloppy and “caveman” like?[/QUOTE]
You aren’t supplying any evidence. That’s the point. The only evidence of WC being used against resisting opponents seems to be what you call caveman style.

but regarding “sloppy” and “caveman” fighting and how you like it, you are probably referring to the comments regarding this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krg4k8uB4E8

my response to your response is, “well if you have ever fought quality competent fighters you would realize the difference between agression and technique”

My response was, show me the evidence of you doing it better… and since you obviously can’t do that (which tells me exactly where your skills lie), show me the evidence of SOMEONE doing it better.

since you have it all figured out, please tell me what WC principle those in the video adheres to

The principle of “that is what it is going to look like when the majority of WC people try to put their training into practice in a full-contact setting.”

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951458]You aren’t supplying any evidence. That’s the point. The only evidence of WC being used against resisting opponents seems to be what you call caveman style.[/quote]

well its not my fault that there arent many WC sparring vids out on youtube. youtube isn’t the end all be all of knowledge.

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951458]My response was, show me the evidence of you doing it better… and since you obviously can’t do that (which tells me exactly where your skills lie), show me the evidence of SOMEONE doing it better.[/quote]

i will. all you have to do is watch any of your favorite UFC fights. watch machida. watch liddell. watch anderson sylva. there is a difference between a slugfest or brawl and a skilled fight. its fairly obvious

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951458]
The principle of “that is what it is going to look like when the majority of WC people try to put their training into practice in a full-contact setting.”[/QUOTE]

probably because without proper training you cannot overcome your natural urge to fight like that…it especially comes out in a full contact setting because of your nerves. you abandon all technique and just brawl.

this does happen a lot to people who have not trained, but it is not the desired behavior.

look to any of your prized MMA fighters. they do not brawl.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;951466]well its not my fault that there arent many WC sparring vids out on youtube. youtube isn’t the end all be all of knowledge.[/QUOTE]
If you had access to someone using WC with good technique, it would be very easy for you to make some clips. Somehow, however, I have the feeling you don’t have access to anyone who can actually use WC with “technique”.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951471]If you had access to someone using WC with good technique, it would be very easy for you to make some clips. Somehow, however, I have the feeling you don’t have access to anyone who can actually use WC with “technique”.[/QUOTE]

read my posts again. try to comprehend. please. focus like a laser beam.

this is not about WC. its about using some technique to fight versus a blitzkrieg attack. you want evidence of someone using technique to fight? watch lyoto machida fight someone.

10

Regardless of Dale/knifefighter’s attempts to derail, troll, stall, and change the subject, this thread is about TERENCE, and his constant bul$hit - made doubly necessary by the fact that…

IT IS TERENCE WHO HAS YET TO PROVE THAT HE CAN DO ANYTHING OF WHAT HE CONSTANTLY DROLLS ON ABOUT.

Here’s what Terence recently said on another thread:

“I do fight and with skilled people. I think that I’m competently skilled. I’VE DONE THE WORK. What you want is for me to show you my work. Sorry. DO YOUR OWN WORK. It won’t help you to see another’s work – you’ve got to do it yourself.”
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***WELL, quite frankly, Terence, I find that very hard to believe. Because you provide NO evidence that you’re competently skilled. Constant talk is not evidence. It’s hear-say, and in this case, it’s your own hearsay about yourself. :rolleyes: And being a lawyer, you should know (and do know) that you haven’t provided any credible evidence whatsoever.

Furthermore, this post of yours quoted above is the same kind of talk you engaged in leading up to the Wing Chun Sparring Get Together in 2003 in Cleveland, wherein you went on for months in post-after-post about how realistic your training was, how good you were getting at it, what great shape you were in, and how we’d all see that once you showed up in Cleveland - AND THEN YOU DIDN’T SHOW.

Anyone could conceivably spend months reading and rereading the words of Matt Thornton (or the posts of Dale Franks, for that matter)…and then decide to regurgitate all of it back on a wing chun forum in a way that is always scewered to say, in effect, “I tried wing chun, it has very little to offer, I NOW know how to get good at fighting, and if you disagree with anything I have to say, it’s because you don’t know what you’re talking about and haven’t experienced what I’ve experienced.”

But to date, Terence’s refusal to provide any VISUAL evidence whatsoever is a clear indication that he CAN’T back up his constant droll. He says that WCK is his primary art, but yet virtually everything he says suggests otherwise: because according to Terence, basically nothing in WCK actually works.

So I think it is very safe to assume three things about Terence:

1- He never learned that much wing chun to begin with.
2- For all his talk, he still has very little skills in ANY martial art.
3- He wants to think that everyone else in WCK is in the same boat he is.

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No real fight against some skilled will look textbook. I hate it when people who have NEVER competed say where is the WC or where is the Bak Mei or what ever. Even pro fighters fights don’t look like choreographed Jet Li movies where everything looks perfect.
But it’s always the people who don’t fight or never fought that talk trash about fight clips they see. I say they should get there b u t t s in the ring and try to pull off perfect techniques so those of us who have competed can tear their fights apart.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;951499]No real fight against some skilled will look textbook. I hate it when people who have NEVER competed say where is the WC or where is the Bak Mei or what ever. Even pro fighters fights don’t look like choreographed Jet Li movies where everything looks perfect.
But it’s always the people who don’t fight or never fought that talk trash about fight clips they see. I say they should get there b u t t s in the ring and try to pull off perfect techniques so those of us who have competed can tear their fights apart.[/QUOTE]

its not even about sloppyness. im not saying that his fook sau wasnt perfect

im saying that each fighter charged at each other with guns blazing. no setups. no feints. no jabs. no footwork.

im sure niehoff would say, “ask any competent functional fighter in MT or boxing. fighting like that is not effective because for every blow you land, you will probably get one back.”

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[QUOTE=Pacman;951514]its not even about sloppyness. im not saying that his fook sau wasnt perfect

im saying that each fighter charged at each other with guns blazing. no setups. no feints. no jabs. no footwork.

im sure niehoff would say, “ask any competent functional fighter in MT or boxing. fighting like that is not effective because for every blow you land, you will probably get one back.”[/QUOTE]
I didn’t even look at the clip until you pointed it out to me. I was just speaking about what I see from posters online in general. Regarding WC, you won’t see what most people think is WC in full contact events. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Pacman;951476]read my posts again. try to comprehend. please. focus like a laser beam.

this is not about WC. its about using some technique to fight versus a blitzkrieg attack. you want evidence of someone using technique to fight? watch lyoto machida fight someone.[/QUOTE]

Oh, OK. So learning MMA, boxing, MT, etc. enables one to fight with technique while learning WC only enables you to fight caveman style with no technique.

I’m OK with that. I kind of agree with that.

15

coming froma style where you lay on the guy the whole time and twist his joint until you make him say unlce i hardly see how you have room to talk knifefighter?
but of course you know more than us after all your some guy know one has even heard of lol

16

"Oh, OK. So learning MMA, boxing, MT, etc. enables one to fight with technique while learning WC only enables you to fight caveman style with no technique.

I’m OK with that. I kind of agree with that." (Dale Franks/aka, knifefighter)
…

***TOTAL TROLL POST. For you somewhat newbies to this forum, come to expect this kind of arrogant dribble from Dale.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951530]Oh, OK. So learning MMA, boxing, MT, etc. enables one to fight with technique while learning WC only enables you to fight caveman style with no technique.

I’m OK with that. I kind of agree with that.[/QUOTE]

haha sad. you know thats not even close to what i said. your desperate attempt to derail the conversation is a big tell–you want to end this conversation because you realize what you had to say was ridiculous

18

dale hasnt posted any of his fights either wonder why?

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Yeah, Dale is trying to run interference for Terence.
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Still waiting to hear from the man-of-the-hour about this, though:

"But to date, Terence’s refusal to provide any VISUAL evidence whatsoever is a clear indication that he CAN’T back up his constant droll. He says that WCK is his primary art, but yet virtually everything he says suggests otherwise: because according to Terence, basically nothing in WCK actually works.

So I think it is very safe to assume three things about Terence:

1- He never learned that much wing chun to begin with.
2- For all his talk, he still has very little skills in ANY martial art.
3- He wants to think that everyone else in WCK is in the same boat he is.

20

With regards to wc as caveman fighting - does that also refer to the likes of rick spain? How about Terence?

Terence: in a way, knifefighter is dissing you. Even with all ur hardwork and fighting against competent fighters, he is implying wc won’t work…

So let’s say we all do suck and terence is the man. Terence, shouldn’t u stick up for yourself? For ur style? For wc brothers? Show knifefighter that wck can be respectable!