The problem with some ways of teaching

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Some schools and teachers teach teaching more than they teach using.

You can watch, every moment you see them, they are breaking something down, but when it comes to it, they are never actually doing the thing they break down: they run through the stylized version of it, but never or rarely train the real version of it.

We’ve all been there, and done that, many times I’m sure.

The problem is, if you don’t see some people in every class doing it, not breaking it down, not being told the breakdown yet again, but some people who have been practicing for a time actually doing it, this doesn’t bode well for your training future in such an environment, imo. You are training to be a “teacher”, but not someone who can do what you are teaching.

The idea that this is all rocket science is preposterous. It simply isn’t. There’s detail work, but there is in everything.

If the culture of a school does not include students who are doing(not apps work, but drills and sparring), if everyone is always around the teacher doing the same lesson regardless of experience, if there are not a group of knowledgeable people who can all answer consistently why this move is this way and show it against real attacks(not “apps training”), and the school has been around for a few years, there is a problem.

If class always breaks down to everyone standing around the teacher and crossing hands with little intent to try their best against him, there is a problem.

If the students all hesitate to cross hands with the teacher, yet the teacher has never injured any of them, there is a deep problem.

The traditional way presumed combat, war, gang fights between schools, etc. One cannot truly encapsulate the tradition today, legally, and so, if the school eschews real contact training with others because of a claim to “tradition”, there is a problem.

Most moves trained in kungfu pretty much require an attack that has real intent, yet most training lacks this, and the easiest way to achieve this, gloves, are argued against as being associated with sport. If your debate is more important than the realism of training your system, which tradition requires have contact involved in a greater extent than can be achieved without tools, then there is a problem.

If the understanding of a technique in ones head is based entirely around a method of explaining it, and not informed by a practice of doing it, one is training to teach, but will not know what he or she teaches.

If, in six months, students get nothing but this kind of teaching, odds are strong they will never get anything different, and if the whole class always does the same lesson, odds are 100% that this is true.

/rant.:smiley:

2

What I dislike are the teachers (a large majority) who teach this or that and then never do anything themselves or just demo techniques in a vacuum. Instead they go sit and read their book or some crap.

3

One thing I really liked from Marine Corps Physical Training is that whoever was leading the exercise had to do it too.

4

We learn by doing, that is why sport systems that have the practitioner doing “IT” ASAP turn out better fighters in a quicker time frame.
In Boxing you are punching the bag and mitts from the first day, learning right away HOW to punch and how NOT to, you are learning right away to o and keep moving, to keep your guard up and EVERYTHING you learn is DIRECTLY applicable to USING boxing in the area it was designed to be used.
Heck, I was sparring the first day and hard sparring the first week !
LOL !

I hazard to say that the first 6months, for sure that first year, is critical to what that person is going to take from his MA.

Nothing is more enlightening then puking after a hook to the liver or waking up after being choked out, or lying down trying to catch your breath after getting the wind knocked out of you by a throw.

MA should follow the rule of Gross motor skills first and fine motor skills after, in other words:
Fighting power, speed and endurance first, fine tuning after.

5

agree w/SJ - my son started in an MMA class about a month ago, 2x week; from day one he was hitting a standing heavy bag with jabs, crosses, hooks, front push kicks and roundhouse kicks (that’s about all they teach for striking, which, frankly, is plenty); they also have done some rudimentary grappling - like what the first thing to do is if you get grabbed in a guillotene (ans. - make sure you can breathe)

anyway, he’s never done anything “in the air”; and when I tell you his roundhouse kick looks like a roundhouse (and feels like one, ouch…), it’s because he figured out right from the start that to get power, you have to kick w/correct mechanics - because of that immediate and constant feedback, he didn’t need someone correcting him about his form as he struggled to kick in the air (and we know how beginners doing RH kicks in the air look); and on the continuum of inherently coordinated, I’d give him about a 6-7 /10, so he’s not a total natural, either;

I took some vid of him kicking the air shield, perhaps I’ll post it if I get a moment…

6

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1033013]We learn by doing, that is why sport systems that have the practitioner doing “IT” ASAP turn out better fighters in a quicker time frame.
In Boxing you are punching the bag and mitts from the first day, learning right away HOW to punch and how NOT to, you are learning right away to o and keep moving, to keep your guard up and EVERYTHING you learn is DIRECTLY applicable to USING boxing in the area it was designed to be used.
Heck, I was sparring the first day and hard sparring the first week !
LOL !

I hazard to say that the first 6months, for sure that first year, is critical to what that person is going to take from his MA.

Nothing is more enlightening then puking after a hook to the liver or waking up after being choked out, or lying down trying to catch your breath after getting the wind knocked out of you by a throw.

MA should follow the rule of Gross motor skills first and fine motor skills after, in other words:
Fighting power, speed and endurance first, fine tuning after.[/QUOTE]

agreed SJ

-enjoy

7

teachers should lead by example in my book. When they say do “X” then they should be doing “X” along with the class. My biggest b!tch about traditionals is that modern perspectives think everything is so fu cking deep. It’s not, it a kick, it’s a punch, nothing special, there are mechanics to follow and guidelines but it’s not extreme brain surgery. Teach it, show it, do it full speed.

whoever said modern sport art is about producing is absolutely correct in that statement. They produce plain and simple, you want results, you want to be able to do it and see it done, you want to see your teacher step in and take the punishment and deal it? Then that is where you will see it.

M. traditional spend to much so much time on the concepts, that they lost the most important perspective of MA’s TO LEARN HOW TO FIGHT BY FIGHTING.

8

the problem is the performance mindset. street performance and selling fake medicine was done out of poverty and desperation

9

[QUOTE=bawang;1033058]the problem is the performance mindset. street performance and selling fake medicine was done out of poverty and desperation[/QUOTE]

Very true! I believe the transition from training simple techniques to practicing complex forms during the 19th and 20th centuries was mainly due to “street performances”.

10

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1033066]Very true! I believe the transition from training simple techniques to practicing complex forms during the 19th and 20th centuries was mainly due to “street performances”.[/QUOTE]

Yep
in fact I seem to recall my taiji/qigong sifu showing me some documentation about how a lot of the oft seen qigong demos took a lotmof their material from Russian circus / strongman arts sometime in the last hundred yrs or so; I could b wrong about that, but the point is that somewhere along the line a tremendous disconnect occurs btw classical daoist inner practice and what we see currently in terms of performance oriented qigong which in a way completely subverts the entire point of internal work (eg - “traditional” practice is predicated on non-linear progression and spontaneous manifestation of various “phennomena” and intrinsc self- balancing of the organism; the performance stuff has nothing to do w that and in fact impo violates man of the essential principles, not to mention being somewhat ego driven Whig is the antithesis of true cultivation)

so there seems to have been a reversal of each: fighting arts loosetheir functionality and cultivation arts become too functional!

11

[QUOTE=bawang;1033058]the problem is the performance mindset. street performance and selling fake medicine was done out of poverty and desperation[/QUOTE]
In the Longfist system, there is a combo called (Wu Feng Qi Fei) - 5 phoenix fly in the air. In that combo, you will make 5 loud sound by:

  • right punch hits left hand.
  • right hand hits right foot instep.
  • right hand hits left foot bottom.
  • right palm hits left hand.
  • right hand hits right foot edge.

When you perform your form, you have your own drum to go with it. It’s good for performance but with no combat value.

12

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1033087]In the Longfist system, there is a combo called (Wu Feng Qi Fei) - 5 phoenix fly in the air. In that combo, you will make 5 loud sound by:

  • right punch hits left hand.
  • right hand hits right foot instep.
  • right hand hits left foot bottom.
  • right palm hits left hand.
  • right hand hits right foot edge.

When you perform your form, you have your own drum to go with it. It’s good for performance but with no combat value.[/QUOTE]
reminds me of the combo Bruce Lee does in his room in Enter The Dragon.
It’s also done in Chinese Opera.

13

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1032966]Some schools and teachers teach teaching more than they teach using.

You can watch, every moment you see them, they are breaking something down, but when it comes to it, they are never actually doing the thing they break down: they run through the stylized version of it, but never or rarely train the real version of it.

We’ve all been there, and done that, many times I’m sure.

The problem is, if you don’t see some people in every class doing it, not breaking it down, not being told the breakdown yet again, but some people who have been practicing for a time actually doing it, this doesn’t bode well for your training future in such an environment, imo. You are training to be a “teacher”, but not someone who can do what you are teaching.

The idea that this is all rocket science is preposterous. It simply isn’t. There’s detail work, but there is in everything.

If the culture of a school does not include students who are doing(not apps work, but drills and sparring), if everyone is always around the teacher doing the same lesson regardless of experience, if there are not a group of knowledgeable people who can all answer consistently why this move is this way and show it against real attacks(not “apps training”), and the school has been around for a few years, there is a problem.

If class always breaks down to everyone standing around the teacher and crossing hands with little intent to try their best against him, there is a problem.

If the students all hesitate to cross hands with the teacher, yet the teacher has never injured any of them, there is a deep problem.

The traditional way presumed combat, war, gang fights between schools, etc. One cannot truly encapsulate the tradition today, legally, and so, if the school eschews real contact training with others because of a claim to “tradition”, there is a problem.

Most moves trained in kungfu pretty much require an attack that has real intent, yet most training lacks this, and the easiest way to achieve this, gloves, are argued against as being associated with sport. If your debate is more important than the realism of training your system, which tradition requires have contact involved in a greater extent than can be achieved without tools, then there is a problem.

If the understanding of a technique in ones head is based entirely around a method of explaining it, and not informed by a practice of doing it, one is training to teach, but will not know what he or she teaches.

If, in six months, students get nothing but this kind of teaching, odds are strong they will never get anything different, and if the whole class always does the same lesson, odds are 100% that this is true.

/rant.:D[/QUOTE]

This is a great post. We do not ever see eye to eye but I have to say this post is quality.

The problem is the way of training. Doing forms and then saying, “This move can be used like this and like this” is not a good way to train students to spontaneously react. Even if I trained this “fake” technique in the air one million times all that does is train me to react, unrealistically, to that specific punch or situation. This kind of training will not allow me to use the technique against a live opponent. Then there is the problem with the technique itself. It ONLY works because of the specific situation it is being used in and because the attacker is not really attacking.

It might be better to do away with SPECIFIC technique drilling in favor of training general skills sets such as striking, throwing, joint locking, etc. Give students tools to work with and have them spar with each other. Each student will manifest slightly differently in the end. This will save time from students having to drill thousands of times a move that will only work in that situation.

I do not agree with the students full heartedly attacking their teacher. Unfortunately striking is more dangerous than grappling. A person can do bjj with his teacher because in the end someone will get submitted and tap rather safely. If two people spar balls out then the teacher might get hurt and lose students for not winning. It is time to shift this view of “teachers” to coaches. Teachers are expected to be deadly and be able to kill any of their students if needed…but he is also years older than most of his students and tired. Tired of teaching, tired of martial arts, tired in general. Coaches are never expected to do anything accept give advice. Tennis coaches do not have to be able to play tennis well. They just have to be able to demonstrate unless they still compete.

14

There are a number of specific techniques boxers train. By technique, I’m including the standard counterpunches, etc. Pretty much all boxers train them.

There are specific techniques bjj guys will train.

I’m not talking working a tech against a contrived attack, but a common one. Jab, cross, what have you. If you drill working it with distance, timing, unscripted, all that, against a common tech, until it can be reasonably pulled off in those conditions, this is hardly training an obscure tech.

General principles do not a style make. They are a big part of it, but all styles have techniques that they train. To train only general principles is, imo, largely one step out from reinventing the wheel, if there are a body of techniques considered to be the best, most commonly occurring approaches using those principles, which there usually are.

If one has taken a style and done this sort of drill work, then they might be able to judge whether it’s techs are worthy or too obscure, but most who speak as if they are qualified to judge this have never done the work at all, imo. That’s another problem entirely.

15

originally posted by youknowwho

In the Longfist system, there is a combo called (Wu Feng Qi Fei) - 5 phoenix fly in the air. In that combo, you will make 5 loud sound by:

  • right punch hits left hand.
  • right hand hits right foot instep.
  • right hand hits left foot bottom.
  • right palm hits left hand.
  • right hand hits right foot edge.

When you perform your form, you have your own drum to go with it. It’s good for performance but with no combat value.

In my experience, the slaps in longfist generally do have a martial application.

For example the slaps on crescent kicks will simulate grabbing/striking the head/arm with the hand(s) from one side while the kick strikes from the other side.
The slaps also give feedback on coordination and power, and provide a preliminary level of conditioning of striking surfaces.
And yes, they definitely also heighten the performance/entertainment value as well.

16

As for forms, the argument is overplayed. If you do more than one empty hand form, none of your problems apply to what I do. I do one. Three times a day, on days I do it, maybe 15-20 minutes combined, but never consecutively, so it’s 3-7 minutes three times a day more like.

Every time, I’m reviewing all the empty hand techniques from the system. The ones I use, the ones I’m working on using, the ones I have an internal debate on the usage of, every time. I don’t teach students this form(except the occasional student who enjoys it), though all the techs I teach are straight from it. But, unlike probably 90% of teachers in bjj, judo, what have you, I, three times daily, cover the entire material that makes up the style I teach in a way that, at minimum, makes me constantly examine each techs place and worth. It doesn’t get in the way of sparring, drills, chin ups, push ups, abs, swimming, roadwork, or any of the other work I do.

I bring up judo and bjj because online, many will speak of their practicality, but we all know the books on those styles, as any other, cover a lot of things that don’t see much use.:smiley:

If your system is spread among nine billion forms repeating the same material often, you have my condolences.:p:D

17

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1033213]As for forms, the argument is overplayed. If you do more than one empty hand form, none of your problems apply to what I do. I do one. Three times a day, on days I do it, maybe 15-20 minutes combined, but never consecutively, so it’s 3-7 minutes three times a day more like.

Every time, I’m reviewing all the empty hand techniques from the system. The ones I use, the ones I’m working on using, the ones I have an internal debate on the usage of, every time. I don’t teach students this form(except the occasional student who enjoys it), though all the techs I teach are straight from it. But, unlike probably 90% of teachers in bjj, judo, what have you, I, three times daily, cover the entire material that makes up the style I teach in a way that, at minimum, makes me constantly examine each techs place and worth. It doesn’t get in the way of sparring, drills, chin ups, push ups, abs, swimming, roadwork, or any of the other work I do.

I bring up judo and bjj because online, many will speak of their practicality, but we all know the books on those styles, as any other, cover a lot of things that don’t see much use.:smiley:

If your system is spread among nine billion forms repeating the same material often, you have my condolences.:p:D[/QUOTE]

I do not train forms kung fu anymore so it is not my problem. It could be a problem for many other people who still train in such a way. It does not matter what is in judo books. What matters is what each man can pull off in randori at the end of EVERY class.

Doing a form or forms is not “going over your whole style.” It is possibly helping to internalize stylistic movements but not the style. A person’s style is his own timing, power, footwork, strikes, throws, etc. Forms do not train any of these attributes.

18

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033209]originally posted by youknowwho

In my experience, the slaps in longfist generally do have a martial application.

For example the slaps on crescent kicks will simulate grabbing/striking the head/arm with the hand(s) from one side while the kick strikes from the other side.
.[/QUOTE]

Dude…seriously now.

19

[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1033024]agree w/SJ - my son started in an MMA class about a month ago, 2x week; from day one he was hitting a standing heavy bag with jabs, crosses, hooks, front push kicks and roundhouse kicks (that’s about all they teach for striking, which, frankly, is plenty); they also have done some rudimentary grappling - like what the first thing to do is if you get grabbed in a guillotene (ans. - make sure you can breathe)

anyway, he’s never done anything “in the air”; and when I tell you his roundhouse kick looks like a roundhouse (and feels like one, ouch…), it’s because he figured out right from the start that to get power, you have to kick w/correct mechanics - because of that immediate and constant feedback, he didn’t need someone correcting him about his form as he struggled to kick in the air (and we know how beginners doing RH kicks in the air look); and on the continuum of inherently coordinated, I’d give him about a 6-7 /10, so he’s not a total natural, either;

I took some vid of him kicking the air shield, perhaps I’ll post it if I get a moment…[/QUOTE]

And here is the thing, taking the RH as an example:
It CAN’T be done biomecanically correct in the air, it has to actually HIT something, if not you are actually working AGAINST the correct movement.
Doing it in the air cause it to lose much of what it has to have to be effective when it actually makes contact.

20

Seriously.

Is boxing the ears an effective technique?
Take away the opponents head…look, you’re just clapping. :slight_smile: