The problem with some ways of teaching

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1033226] It does not matter what is in judo books. What matters is what each man can pull off in randori at the end of EVERY class. [/quote]

For a judo teacher, it does matter what techs the style is made up of. I am not talking about from a straight usage perspective, but to call onesself a teacher of the style, one has to know the entire style, and be able to teach the useful part. To determine the useful part, one must try to work in different parts at different times into randori, including moves that may not favor one’s attributes, but must be understood for teaching people who it would favor. Some judo simply gets no use, but it is in most books on the subject, no?

Doing a form or forms is not “going over your whole style.”

It is doing the techniques that make up the style. It should reference the full tech(the tech live against an opponent) and be informed by it.

It is possibly helping to internalize stylistic movements but not the style. A person’s style is his own timing, power, footwork, strikes, throws, etc. Forms do not train any of these attributes.

Perhaps “method” would be the term you prefer. The method’s form should be an encyclopedia of the moves that make up that method: the strikes, throws, kicks, footwork, etc. The way the techs are done in the form should be informed by live usage. Still, it is more review of the overall material than randori or tuishou will give a teacher, as the teacher will tend to use moves that favor his attributes, but also must teach moves that favor other people’s attributes, which cannot be solely informed by his own randori practice.

I will now go back to using style to reference a specific style of fighting, you may translate to “method”. I am not talking about style in the personal sense, I am using the common term as it is used in these discussions, style as a body of fighting techniques meant to be one means to train fighting.

22

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033236]Seriously.

Is boxing the ears an effective technique?
Take away the opponents head…look, you’re just clapping. :)[/QUOTE]

When was the last time you grabbed a guys head and kicked him in the head?

23

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1033253]When was the last time you grabbed a guys head and kicked him in the head?[/QUOTE]

That’s my point. People do apps and mistake it for reality. Drill the move, and you’re a lot closer to reality. Don’t drill, and you “know” the explanation for a move, but cannot apply it. Do that long enough, and you’re a teacher of teaching the move who can’t do the move.

Just drill the **** in your form or don’t bother with that form.

24

Ha ha…well I haven’t, but I’ve grabbed an arm and kicked to the head, or hooked leg over the elbow (no, not in a full contact environment, basic defend and counter drills, but you know I’m just a beginner…). This is still the same basic movement as described by slapping the kick.

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[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033256]Ha ha…well I haven’t, but I’ve grabbed an arm and kicked to the head, or hooked leg over the elbow (no, not in a full contact environment, basic defend and counter drills, but you know I’m just a beginner…). This is still the same basic movement as described by slapping the kick.[/QUOTE]

Unless you have done it VS someone trying to knock your head off, what exactly have you done in regards to testing this?

26

What do my personal tests have to do with the technique’s place in longfist kung fu?

I simply wished to provide examples of martial applications for the slaps.

Do I personally have to prove that removing someone’s guard with a hand, to kick their head with a foot is effective?

I think not.

27

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033280]What do my personal tests have to do with the technique’s place in longfist kung fu?

I simply wished to provide examples of martial applications for the slaps.

Do I personally have to prove that removing someone’s guard with a hand, to kick their head with a foot is effective?

I think not.[/QUOTE]

Enough said.

28

Hmm…I don’t have very good hip flexibility, I rarely kick to the head when I spar.

For my own technique library of course I must test and prove for myself. I do believe in sparring and bag training and all that ‘modern’ stuff.

However, for the longfist library this is another matter…even if I personally won’t use it much, it’s still good for me to know it.
I have seen other people remove the guard to kick head in full contact fighting, that’s good enough to justify it’s place in longfist, even though it won’t justify my using it.

29

Personally I think it would be nice if people could post their knowledge without constantly being asked to prove they can fight. Even ma’s who can’t actually fight still may know techniques fighters can use.

The more information available, the better chance users of this forum have for making their own evaluations. Constant challenges of this type discourage the sharing of information that others could benefit from.

I don’t think misinformation is tma’s biggest problem…I think it is the lack of correct information. People have to learn to tell for themselves what is real and what is not. If they cannot manage this then maybe they don’t deserve the real. I see no reason to try to shout anyone into silence, or into taking back what they’ve said, no matter how ridiculous they sound.

It’s all beneficial to the people reading these posts.

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[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033339]Personally I think it would be nice if people could post their knowledge without constantly being asked to prove they can fight. Even ma’s who can’t actually fight still may know techniques fighters can use.[/quote]

You don’t need to prove this, it’s more a matter of, if any of us say “X works,” it presumes that we know this. If we don’t, it would be better if someone clarified this. If I’m wrong, point it out.

The more information available, the better chance users of this forum have for making their own evaluations. Constant challenges of this type discourage the sharing of information that others could benefit from.

He’s not challenging you. It’s just that, if the person saying “X can work” can’t show that, he should work on it, show it, and then he’s shared something real. You’ve taken the right approach, you say “My experience is A, I like B, I think it would be useful,” from there, if later you go “Here’s how I’m using B, what do you think,” that’s the same thing to the next level.

If I’m a teacher and I never took this step, in China I’d be called a cheat by respected sifus, and they’d be right to some extent.

I don’t think misinformation is tma’s biggest problem…I think it is the lack of correct information.

I would say the introduction of the incorrect came from those not using the style being the ones defining the style, but otherwise I agree with you.

People have to learn to tell for themselves what is real and what is not. If they cannot manage this then maybe they don’t deserve the real.

If I’m a fraud, I’m a fraud regardless of whether students deserved it or not.

I see no reason to try to shout anyone into silence, or into taking back what they’ve said, no matter how ridiculous they sound.

We should strive to be respectful, true, and to take the high road, but there will be disagreements. I do not argue what usage is with anyone. But, I will argue that a teacher has to show a certain level of skill beyond showing application: and, when I’m fairly certain that a teacher has that level and doesn’t show it, I’ll try to coax it out of him, even if it makes him surly in the process.;):smiley:

Some good students will choose to avoid wasting time if it is not clear that the teacher can apply what they are doing realistically. If we only resort to teaching people who “want to learn gongfu”, we limit ourselves to a group that largely approaches it as an exotic thing, and so are doubly incapable of recognizing it as a simple practice.

It’s all beneficial to the people reading these posts.

The critical questioning is also sometimes valuable as well.

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Personally I think it would be nice if people could post their knowledge without constantly being asked to prove they can fight. Even ma’s who can’t actually fight still may know techniques fighters can use.

Indeed, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, if it can be produced.
I have never seen ANYONE in any contact MA, in a free style match, ever, grab someone’s head and then kick that same head with their foot while still holding on.
EVER.

32

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1032966]Some schools and teachers teach teaching more than they teach using.

You can watch, every moment you see them, they are breaking something down, but when it comes to it, they are never actually doing the thing they break down: they run through the stylized version of it, but never or rarely train the real version of it.

We’ve all been there, and done that, many times I’m sure.

The problem is, if you don’t see some people in every class doing it, not breaking it down, not being told the breakdown yet again, but some people who have been practicing for a time actually doing it, this doesn’t bode well for your training future in such an environment, imo. You are training to be a “teacher”, but not someone who can do what you are teaching.

The idea that this is all rocket science is preposterous. It simply isn’t. There’s detail work, but there is in everything.

If the culture of a school does not include students who are doing(not apps work, but drills and sparring), if everyone is always around the teacher doing the same lesson regardless of experience, if there are not a group of knowledgeable people who can all answer consistently why this move is this way and show it against real attacks(not “apps training”), and the school has been around for a few years, there is a problem.

If class always breaks down to everyone standing around the teacher and crossing hands with little intent to try their best against him, there is a problem.

If the students all hesitate to cross hands with the teacher, yet the teacher has never injured any of them, there is a deep problem.

The traditional way presumed combat, war, gang fights between schools, etc. One cannot truly encapsulate the tradition today, legally, and so, if the school eschews real contact training with others because of a claim to “tradition”, there is a problem.

Most moves trained in kungfu pretty much require an attack that has real intent, yet most training lacks this, and the easiest way to achieve this, gloves, are argued against as being associated with sport. If your debate is more important than the realism of training your system, which tradition requires have contact involved in a greater extent than can be achieved without tools, then there is a problem.

If the understanding of a technique in ones head is based entirely around a method of explaining it, and not informed by a practice of doing it, one is training to teach, but will not know what he or she teaches.

If, in six months, students get nothing but this kind of teaching, odds are strong they will never get anything different, and if the whole class always does the same lesson, odds are 100% that this is true.

/rant.:D[/QUOTE]

the real problem is that because so few teachers actually compete (or have ever had a fight) then they dont know how to teach in an alive manner (sorry couldnt resist using the term :smiley: ) and lots of people who think they are training their system in an alive manner are deluding themselves. Add to that so few people want to break a sweat or get hit and you have the current mess we are in

All sports orientated schools train this way as a matter of course so look at arguements about ways to teach and how to make techniques work as just silly

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[QUOTE=Frost;1033374]the real problem is that because so few teachers actually compete (or have ever had a fight) then they dont know how to teach in an alive manner (sorry couldnt resist using the term :smiley: ) and lots of people who think they are training their system in an alive manner are deluding themselves. Add to that so few people want to break a sweat or get hit and you have the current mess we are in

All sports orientated schools train this way as a matter of course so look at arguements about ways to teach and how to make techniques work as just silly[/QUOTE]

You just said the same thing I did, except saying alive.:p:D

I prefer to say fo rizzle.

34

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1033371]Indeed, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, if it can be produced.
I have never seen ANYONE in any contact MA, in a free style match, ever, grab someone’s head and then kick that same head with their foot while still holding on.
EVER.[/QUOTE]

true TCMA is in the mess its in largely because of claims made that have never been proved, if you are teaching stuff that you cant prove works in a majority of situations (either from personal expereince or from seeing it used in confrontations, be they sport or street) then you are by and large a fraud and an immoral teacher

35

KC thanks for your thoughtful and respectful reply. I pretty much agree with all you’ve said.

However, I am a student, not a teacher. What I have done with my techniques is not a reflection of what my teacher and seniors have done. (And what I therefore hope/intend to one day be able to do as well).

Also I was not saying I could/have used said technique. I was simply responding to a post that said there were no applications for the slaps. I have been shown applications for a number of them, just thought that would be good to share.

Finally, I really think that removing the guard with a hand to kick the head is something so elementary and practical that there would be no need to prove that this was something that could work. You all ought to know that for yourselves. None of you should need me to demonstrate that technique in order for you to evaluate it, this is not some advanced esoteric fancy move, it’s something basic that can be seen all over the place.

Thanks for your reply.

(sanjuro…you’ve seen it with a knee, I know)

36

[QUOTE=Frost;1033381]true TCMA is in the mess its in largely because of claims made that have never been proved, if you are teaching stuff that you cant prove works in a majority of situations (either from personal expereince or from seeing it used in confrontations, be they sport or street) then you are by and large a fraud and an immoral teacher[/QUOTE]

The problem is that, frankly, I’ve seen silly things work in street fights that I’d never advocate. Most fights are not against stone cold killing machines. So the bare minimum is actually lower than the sports oriented guys like to claim. When they claim it’s so much higher, they invalidate their good points by making patently clear that they are also romanticizing the street.

The stuff to be afraid of on the street is exactly the stuff that unarmed combat is possibly the last choice in using.

37

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033339]Personally I think it would be nice if people could post their knowledge without constantly being asked to prove they can fight. Even ma’s who can’t actually fight still may know techniques fighters can use.

The more information available, the better chance users of this forum have for making their own evaluations. Constant challenges of this type discourage the sharing of information that others could benefit from.

I don’t think misinformation is tma’s biggest problem…I think it is the lack of correct information. People have to learn to tell for themselves what is real and what is not. If they cannot manage this then maybe they don’t deserve the real. I see no reason to try to shout anyone into silence, or into taking back what they’ve said, no matter how ridiculous they sound.

It’s all beneficial to the people reading these posts.[/QUOTE]

You should question everything everyone ever says about anything.

It’s called Critical thinking, don’t leave home without it. :wink:

38

(sanjuro…you’ve seen it with a knee, I know)

Dude.
Come on, I know that apples and oranges are both fruits, both have skin, both make juice and both have pits, but no one will ever confuse one with the other.

39

[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1033383]KC thanks for your thoughtful and respectful reply. I pretty much agree with all you’ve said.

However, I am a student, not a teacher. What I have done with my techniques is not a reflection of what my teacher and seniors have done. (And what I therefore hope/intend to one day be able to do as well).

Also I was not saying I could/have used said technique. I was simply responding to a post that said there were no applications for the slaps. I have been shown applications for a number of them, just thought that would be good to share.

Finally, I really think that removing the guard with a hand to kick the head is something so elementary and practical that there would be no need to prove that this was something that could work. You all ought to know that for yourselves. None of you should need me to demonstrate that technique in order for you to evaluate it, this is not some advanced esoteric fancy move, it’s something basic that can be seen all over the place.

Thanks for your reply.

(sanjuro…you’ve seen it with a knee, I know)[/QUOTE]

I think he’s referring to the lotus kick with the slap. That’s what I assumed.

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[QUOTE=SanHeChuan;1033386]You should question everything everyone ever says about anything.

It’s called Critical thinking, don’t leave home without it. ;)[/QUOTE]

You’re lying.:smiley:

I know this because you cited wikipedia, and everyone knows that you can’t cite them with any reliability! I believe they even say so on wikipedia.