Everytime I see this header I read “forums” instead of “forms”:eek:
IMHO, forms are an exaggeration or characterization of what you would actually use in a fight. They often demand that you go lower, kick higher, make a bigger circle or telegraph your movement. That is because in addition to containing the techniques in the system they are a training tool to build the ging/jin/bodymechanics. In addition, forms contain an aesthetic component, for example, returning to the same spot on the ground that you started.
The problem is when people try to apply techniques exactly as they appear in the form in a live situation (and you’d be surprised how common this is especially with beginners who get into sparring after learning a few forms.)
So while forms are a nice training tool to build up the body to support a specific set of techniques ultimately you have to dissect the form and pull out the simpler techniques to work in repetition. And often these have to be modified to be workable.
This is kind of a stupid way to do things and leads to a lot of confusion …modern styles start with the simpler applications with lots of repetition.
In the styles that I’ve learned the most useful exercises for application were drills not forms, where we would work a simple, workable technique many times over. However, to be fair to the forms, they got in me in very good shape and helped me develop the ging/jin of the style.
Its just that people today don’t have time to d(ck around with forms. And alot of teachers don’t know the drills or how to extract movements that could be drills out of the forms.
Cheers,
EO
agreed.
Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you’re doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.
So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don’t see that as a problem?
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;857832]Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you’re doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.
So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don’t see that as a problem?[/QUOTE]
And here we have the crucial issue with forms.
Eric’s hit upon an essential truth, the movements in forms are abstracted. They’re designed to develop “pure” movement principles for maximum power generation. These then need to be contextualised for usage. Viewed this way, then forms are useful training tools, but won’t teach you to fight in and of themselves.
Ross has a point about DVD though, the original purpose of forms was to catalogue techniques, but this misses the point that many people enjoy forms practice for it’s own sake.
You can argue that all martial arts training is ultimately pointless really. As an adult in the UK you are statistically highly unlikely to be a victim of violence. I don’t know the statistics for the States, but a CCP and a 9mm will cost you less than a years tuition. Viewed that way, how much sense does it make to invest huge amounts of time, effort and money to become “effective”?
View it another way, I work in a high risk profession, whenever I’ve had to defend myself I use maybe 4 or 5 techniques, all of which were in the first Kung Fu form I learned. I find it highly unlikely I’ll ever need to Omoplata someone from guard, so why learn to?
Why do students who’ll never fight competitively study MMA or submission grappling? The same reason people learn forms. They find it fun and interesting in and of itself.
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;857832]Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you’re doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.
So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don’t see that as a problem?[/QUOTE]
Hence we get into another argument of Contemporary Wushu VS Traditional Forms.
Which, I believe, is what Arhat’s initial qualm about forms. Its not necessarily that he does not like forms but rather his experience with them is based of the flowery stuff with no application and/or he had a sifu that did not teach apps or perhaps did nto know them. So he finds them useless.
I would too if my past sifu’s just told me to move around and never showed me workable applications of them. My money would be best served going to an aerobics class at that point.
ok, here’s yet ANOTHER problem with forms
Where is the CONTEXT? :rolleyes:
If I throw a strike in the air, where am I hitting? Is he standing with his left leg or his right leg forward? What does it feel like if I land it? What does it feel like if he blocks it? HOW does he block it? How far/close am I from/to him? Am I faking or feinting? Is it an attack or a reaction?
Here’s another idea… when I am doing forms, I am the center. When I am working with a partner, the center is outside me, somewhere BETWEEN the two of us
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;857832]Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you’re doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok. [/quote]
Its not really that they are wrong, its that they are somewhat “abstracted” to quote Ben, for the reasons that I mentioned: training and aesthetics.
Think of it this way, fighters of many different styles lift weights right, to make their bodies stronger. Its not that that they are going to use the exact same motion of doing a bench press in a fight. But the movements with the weights makes there punches stronger.
In the same way a form is a training exercise, but perhaps even a bit less abstract then a bench press. It follows the motions of a technique but its exaggerated to stretch the range or capabilities of the fighter.
So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don’t see that as a problem?[/QUOTE]
Its not that they are incorrect mechanically, its often that they are practiced too slow or too large to be useful in a realtime fight accept under unusual circumstances. For example, in my CLF class we used to kick over our heads even though we were taught to kick low in a fight, usually to the side of the knee. Mechanically it was correct but probably not realistic in a fight, but definitely got us in good shape.
EO
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;857867]ok, here’s yet ANOTHER problem with forms
Where is the CONTEXT? :rolleyes:
If I throw a strike in the air, where am I hitting? Is he standing with his left leg or his right leg forward? What does it feel like if I land it? What does it feel like if he blocks it? HOW does he block it? How far/close am I from/to him? Am I faking or feinting? Is it an attack or a reaction?
Here’s another idea… when I am doing forms, I am the center. When I am working with a partner, the center is outside me, somewhere BETWEEN the two of us[/QUOTE]
This is a gigantic over complication. The form is a raw construct of movement. All of the above you mentioned happens(or at should happen) as a consequence of practice based on the raw construct. IE applications drill, sparring etc. You are not the center.
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;857868]Its not really that they are wrong, its that they are somewhat “abstracted” to quote Ben, for the reasons that I mentioned: training and aesthetics.
Think of it this way, fighters of many different styles lift weights right, to make their bodies stronger. Its not that that they are going to use the exact same motion of doing a bench press in a fight. But the movements with the weights makes there punches stronger.
In the same way a form is a training exercise, but perhaps even a bit less abstract then a bench press. It follows the motions of a technique but its exaggerated to stretch the range or capabilities of the fighter.
So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don’t see that as a problem?[/QUOTE]
Its not that they are incorrect mechanically, its often that they are practiced too slow or too large to be useful in a realtime fight accept under unusual circumstances. For example, in my CLF class we used to kick over our heads even though we were taught to kick low in a fight, usually to the side of the knee. Mechanically it was correct but probably not realistic in a fight, but definitely got us in good shape.
EO[/QUOTE]I concur.
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;857902]
This is a gigantic over complication.
[/QUOTE]
Most people these days feel that FORMS are the “gigantic over complication” :rolleyes:
Wasting hundreds of hours doing something where (1) the movement will be different in actual application and (2) the actual application is missing
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;857902]
The form is a raw construct of movement. All of the above you mentioned happens(or at should happen) as a consequence of practice based on the raw construct. IE applications drill, sparring etc.
[/QUOTE]
So, according to you, first spend 12 hours learning sets, delaying the 12 hours you need to do the drills, sparring, etc, to make it work 
How about just not do the forms and do the sparring and application drills
How many forms champions are also successful fighters???
I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion. If you give me time I can name several others. My Sifu was both forms and point fighting champion back in the 80’s. Believe me you don’t want to fight my Sifu (John Dufresne). Anyone that knows my sifu will tell you he knows how to fight but yet he does wu shu and was forms champion back in the day.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;857918]Most people these days feel that FORMS are the “gigantic over complication” :rolleyes:
Wasting hundreds of hours doing something where (1) the movement will be different in actual application and (2) the actual application is missing
So, according to you, first spend 12 hours learning sets, delaying the 12 hours you need to do the drills, sparring, etc, to make it work
How about just not do the forms and do the sparring and application drills
How many forms champions are also successful fighters???[/QUOTE]
Do you see any reason/purpose for forms in your program? That’s a serious question.
EO
[QUOTE=mkriii;857920]I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion. If you give me time I can name several others. My Sifu was both forms and point fighting champion back in the 80’s. Believe me you don’t want to fight my Sifu (John Dufresne). Anyone that knows my sifu will tell you he knows how to fight but yet he does wu shu and was forms champion back in the day.[/QUOTE]
LOL at point fighting champions.
I like John, but LKFMDC is talking about ring fighters.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;857926]LOL at point fighting champions.
I like John, but LKFMDC is talking about REAL fighters.[/QUOTE]
Corrected.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;857926]LOL at point fighting champions.
I like John, but LKFMDC is talking about ring fighters.[/QUOTE]
to be fair, in any sport/art everyone who teaches is a champion at some thing or another at some point in time. It doesn’t count for a lot unless they are producing champions in the grounds that are available in the here and now.
or training mercs somewhere. lol
[QUOTE=mkriii;857920]I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion. If you give me time I can name several others. My Sifu was both forms and point fighting champion back in the 80’s. Believe me you don’t want to fight my Sifu (John Dufresne). Anyone that knows my sifu will tell you he knows how to fight but yet he does wu shu and was forms champion back in the day.[/QUOTE]
LOL at point fighters
[QUOTE=mkriii;857920]I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion.
[/QUOTE]
“pont fighting” :rolleyes: pretty much end of that discussion right there!
if you like to do long forms, do them.
if you do not, then do not do them.
to me, even repitition of a single move several times in a row, is considered forms.
forms simply mean a pattern of moves.
and actual fight is always a random event or san da (random fighting/hitting)
for most of us, we need to do both, drilling of moves (pattern/forms) and random fighting.
–
so we do not judge a book by its cover.
we also do not judge a person’s fighting abililty by judging him doing forms only.
etc
etc
my 0.0000002.
