“postures” in TCMA can mean a lot of things, in many cases it means “techniques”… again, forms as we see them today are NOT much older than 150 years old
[QUOTE=rogue;857408]Is that a 1000 year old history book?[/QUOTE]
It’s RD, so he must mean “video tape” 
Same holds true with Okinawan and Japanese sysetms it seems.
From what I gather, in terms of Karate for example, outside of Sanchin ( which is a variation/modification of ****ien White Crane’s Sam jian ( sp?) or another souther kung fu system like SPM or Lung Yung) most of the forms tend to be early 20th late 19th century.
I used to think forms and shadowboxing were relatively the same thing.
Now that I’ve got more sport training under my belt I don’t feel the same way.
I know this is all very dependent on style, but here are my observations.
Shadowboxing has a bit more visualization involved.
Yes, I know you’re supposed to visualize the movements of a form being applied to a resisting opponent as you’re doing them; but with a form you can’t really play over your last sparring session in your head and work on what you’d do different- because a form does not change.
Shadowboxing does work on balance and technique but it tends to be more relaxed.
I have a few forms that I’ve done above the 10,000x mark and competed with - so don’t bother saying i just “don’t have enough experience”. Throwing with full power in shadowboxing is actually kind of a rarity; the key tends to be relaxation and loosening up. I think forms are played much more “tense” - maybe the power itself is more relaxed in sport arts; not sure. Shadowboxing in sport arts tends to stress “being light on the feet”; where forms practice usually stresses “deep stances”.
Shadowboxing is more acutely focused on how you fight. Shadowboxing is done from your fighting stance/framework, working on angles & strategies that you’re looking to use in the fight. I don’t know how many times I learned a form and asked someone “well what’s this for?” and heard back “well in application it looks different…”. I think of forms more as technique building blocks arranged in a specific way to teach specific principles. They’re like exercises that build your foundation for fighting, as opposed to directly working on the fighting itself. Let’s be honest, there are very few people that fight from the same framework as are in their forms. This doesn’t mean the rest aren’t using their kung fu; people just need to be adaptable in a situation as fluid as live sparring - so holding a pose for the pose’s sake won’t fly and sometimes the deep stances & chambered punches have to go away.
I still don’t want to say one’s better than the other. Forms definitely have their uses. I’d just rather use shadowboxing as a quick warm up and skip to the part where i actually get to hit stuff instead of spending the majority of my training time hitting the air.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;857393]Ah, but the educated concensus is that forms as we know them today are less than TWO hundreds years old as opposed to a martial culture in CHina that is THOUSANDS of years old
IE, for most of TCMA’s history, it was done more like, gasp!, mixed martial arts :eek:[/QUOTE]
Then what happened? Why all the segregation? Any ideas?
[QUOTE=couch;857438]Then what happened? Why all the segregation? Any ideas?[/QUOTE]
Public schools need a curriculum.
Forms are for beginners who can’t yet mix and match their techniques. They are an example of how they can fit together. They should be outgrown after a certain point and only preserved for teaching the next generation.
Once you understand the moves and the style you should practice freeform (like shadowboxing). The problem is some never get comfortable taking off the training wheels.
[QUOTE=couch;857438]
Why all the segregation? Any ideas?[/QUOTE]
They went from 1 or 2 students hanging around their house to 100 guys in a public school. Was a lot easier to all make them do forms, keep them coming back for more forms, collectiong tuition every month, than to teach in the personalized way it had been done in the past…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;857441]They went from 1 or 2 students hanging around their house to 100 guys in a public school. Was a lot easier to all make them do forms, keep them coming back for more forms, collectiong tuition every month, than to teach in the personalized way it had been done in the past…[/QUOTE]
Thanks LK and MK.
As far as mixing (MMA-style), do you think there ever was a pre-BJJ form(s)? Like in Judo (with their ‘ground-fighting form’) If people were mixing and matching for so long, I always wonder what happened that we have certain styles via thought processes (ie: Wing Chun vs. CLF) or country (Muay Thai vs. Savate). I wonder at what point people said: no more mixing…I only do stand-up from now on.
Hmm…
[QUOTE=couch;857442]Thanks LK and MK.
As far as mixing (MMA-style), do you think there ever was a pre-BJJ form(s)? Like in Judo (with their ‘ground-fighting form’) If people were mixing and matching for so long, I always wonder what happened that we have certain styles via thought processes (ie: Wing Chun vs. CLF) or country (Muay Thai vs. Savate). I wonder at what point people said: no more mixing…I only do stand-up from now on.
Hmm…[/QUOTE]
All real martial arts are “mixed” if you understand the term to mean striking and grappling, if they aren’t they are crap, pretty simple really…
Karate has trips, sweeps and throws, kicks where they fall to the ground, etc
Judo has strikes
Japanese Jiu Jitsu is completely mixed, a system that embraced weapons as well
All TCMA has both striking and grappling
Wrestling is universal in cultures around the world, but the idea of ground grappling in combat is someone “new”, a lot of assumptions about what would or could happen, and some fundamental changes in reality (ie we aren’t walking around with swords and spears all day anymore)…
[QUOTE=golden arhat;857278]basically
i have a theory as to why forms are useless
basically i see it as
if your shadow boxing your thinking of where your placing hits on an opponent and moving according to that, your free flowing and fighting an imaginary opponent this enables you to react accordingly should it happen in real life
now with forms the way i learnt them tho i would try and think where they would go
the emphasis was on it looking right, with the right move coming after the previous one etc
now if your only thinking about what to put after another move arent you basically a dancer? your mind is so preoccupied on getting the form right that you miss out on what the techniques you are practising actually do.
a punch is a punch but who punches with the intention of the one coming after it looking right ? or in the correct order ?
thoughts ?[/QUOTE]
In regards to you post concerning forms vs. shadowboxing, there is a point where these two elements can be on common ground.
When you learn a chinese style, many times you will be giving the techniques through a string of movments. Forms. At the beginning you work hard to memorize each technique, so that they can, in time, be executed seperately as needed.
Once you have accumulated enough time within your chosen style, many of these “forms” will become engraned into your bodies muscle memory.
You heard bruce lee say something along the lines of “learn the form, then forget the form” This is just part of the basic process of learning chinese martial arts via form.
Once you “own” the form, and know it intimately, you can essentially forget the form. You dont ‘need’ the form anymore for anything other than passing the form on in a teaching format.
At this point, when you ‘know’ your style, you can shadow box using all the techniques in your ‘forms’, yet with no pre arranged format.
Free form shadow boxing. I do this every single day. Many CMA practitioners do. Personally, I also practice a select handfull of forms to one day pass on to someone. In addition once a month I review the forms that I do not practice on a regular basis. Simply to remember.
However, CMA practitioners are not confined by their ‘forms’. It is quite the opposite. Once you become the form, they can set you free.
of course remember, there are many many form collectors.
However this is not necessarily bad. it is just what they are.
each person serves as a different cog on the wheel…
I think this all kind of goes back to the same argument some people make about stances. I’ve heard people saythings like cross stepping is useless bc you can be knocked over easily if shoved. The thing is, that a cross step isn’t supposed to be used statically, it’s a step used to transition, move or set up a strike. Same thing with forms, you can’t just run through a form and expect to level your opponent(s), but to help understand techniques and become comfortable with them, they’re very helpful IMHO. Unless you know the quart of blood technique, then all bets are off:D
Lucas
I think what you’re saying is extremely school specific. That (ie. teaching to freestyle shadowbox with techs from the forms) was not the case at a lot of the places I’ve trained.
Mook Jong
The thing is, a lot of sport-fighting people will tell you that lateral cross stepping is useless even if it is transitional - just have to time a kick/punch while the crossing leg is in the air and they’ll be off balance. Now forward and backward crossing steps are not quite the same thing - you can steal a step moving forward either in front or behind the front leg without too much trouble; I like to double up on crosses with the steal step in front a lot of judo throws start with the steal step in back. Retreating, I’m not sure I’d recommend the cross step - unless i was using the step as a recover so I could immediately fire a side kick - because that’s all i’ve tried.
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;857440]
Once you understand the moves and the style you should practice freeform (like shadowboxing). The problem is some never get comfortable taking off the training wheels.[/QUOTE]… or realize you are suposed to take them off.
I’m a big fan of the forms that build the body up…like iron ring training and gung lik type forms.
These are the most valuable in any kung fu system. I think you can keep practicing these without worrying about shedding them. Maybe once you’ve got the fighting movements down pat you won’t need to drill them, but the developmental ones are invaluable in my opinion.
[QUOTE=WinterPalm;857465]I’m a big fan of the forms that build the body up…like iron ring training and gung lik type forms.
These are the most valuable in any kung fu system. I think you can keep practicing these without worrying about shedding them. Maybe once you’ve got the fighting movements down pat you won’t need to drill them, but the developmental ones are invaluable in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Because I say so !! ( Actually, I just need to add more words to reach the minimum ).
I see what you mean about school specific. I agree with you on that, not all schools will stress this.
Perhaps I should have stressed more the ability to be able to free form shadow box.
IMO one should not be stuck within the format of the forms they practice.
IE: there are many movements that can follow one particular technique, not only the ones shown in your forms.
It is the ability to utilize all of your techniques from more perspectives than the limited forms allow.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;857288]yes, the musings of a single individual will always trump a couple fo hundred years of concentrated efforts by thousands. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
finally
someone gets it.
[QUOTE=WinterPalm;857294]Don’t like forms, don’t do 'em.
Like forms, do 'em.
If memory serves me correctly, you do modern wushu, right?
That is probably why you feel this way, because wushu forms are useless aside from a bit of athleticism.[/QUOTE]
i USED to do modern wushu
correct
i also have been doing traditional martial arts including tkd, hung gar and aikido. since i was roughly six years old
i’ve been doing mixed martial arts for the past 2 years now