Fact is is that Wiiliam C.C. Chen’s son Max is not famed for his Taiji as he prefers western boxing and never cam enear his father in his internal studies and by all accounts from what I heard is no real internalist. I cannot make a statement about his daughter.
His daughter is very good at pushhands, and she’s had some sucess in San Shou too.
Just curious, but how many people comenting on this thread actually know Karate?
I’ve had the opportunity to on two occasion to compare and contrast with a 2nd dan in Gojo Ryu and a 4th dan Koei Kan on the mechanics of an internal punch contrasted to an external punch.
From what I’ve experienced the external method is more mechanical nature. I would have to make a long-winded post to detail what I witnessed in their body mechanics. But, in short both used more upper body and no ground jin. They used their root just to get the power behind their hips and shoulders but it didn’t go beyond that.
Well, I’ve never really seen nor experienced a TJQ punch.
But, I’ve studied Isshinryu karate the last few years. I’d love to explain *****uchi, the method of power generation used by Isshinryu, but I’m horrible at that kind of thing.
Suffice it to say that one must push into the ground, let the energy twist upwards, and pop out your fist. A minimum of hip movement is necessary.
Originally posted by Brad
Just curious, but how many people comenting on this thread actually know Karate?
Good question!
What is real Karate? Or what is real Quan Shu. For the record I don’t qualify as knowing much about Karatedo.
However, my favorite misconception that I see people buying hook line a sinker, is that in Okinaw, 400 years ago, people created a fist method that resembles exactly western style boxing with kicks.
Originally posted by Vash
[B]Well, I’ve never really seen nor experienced a TJQ punch.
But, I’ve studied Isshinryu karate the last few years. I’d love to explain *****uchi, the method of power generation used by Isshinryu, but I’m horrible at that kind of thing.
Suffice it to say that one must push into the ground, let the energy twist upwards, and pop out your fist. A minimum of hip movement is necessary. [/B]
Vash
I have a friend who is very a very good fighter (pratices Isshinryu karate) He has a lot of power and uses a lot of internal principles.
The mechanics of an internal puch will vary differently depending on the school of thought. But on a whole they are different from what my friend does in Isshinryu…how much who can say?
However being different hardly means better…all said and done if my friend ever hit me it would probably knock my block off. In Taijiquan it’s up to me to stay soft on the edge of his bubble so that doesn’t happen.
Greetings..
I earned a black-belt in Yoshukai late '72… Taiji punches are uniquely effective given the years of training necessary to execute them correctly.. Tiffany Chen is among the best of the best at push-hands AND Lei Tai.. aside from that, she is a kind and gracious Lady..
As for the “Power of Taiji”.. those that haven’t experienced it, can’t imagine it.. Those that have experienced it, need no further evidence.. and, dialogue between the two is confined by the experiences of participants..
One major issue is the necessary investment of Time required to raise Taiji to the level of combat proficiency.. those unwilling to invest the time will usually rationalize their own preferences.. those that have invested the Time feel threatened by the possibility (not probabability) that other styles may have comparable skills for less investment..
We shoot at the same target.. if we stay focused on the target and not the other guy’s aim, we are more likely to hit it…
Be well…
Holy Crapple! Two reasoned, sensible responses. I think hell just froze over.
Well, the Andy Hug spinning back low kick is an awesome move whoever you are. Andy Hug would **** you up. I know no karate at all, so don’t have much to say other than I have never felt the power of karate
Actually, I wouldn’t think being a karate master means you know anything about Taiji or vice versa. They seem different to me actually, but a good low spinning back kick to the leg is a good thing in any art. I shouldn’t even be talking about what I don’t know.
Greetings..
For those that aren’t aware.. a thread by this same name exists in the main Kung Fu Forum.. 13 pages and growing.. some excellent dialogue (some not, me included.. my passion for the subject sometimes compromises my good-sense)..
Be well..
I just wanted to chime in on this subject.
If quick results are desired for self-defense and fighting, then study Karate or any other external art.
Taijiquan is the highest martial art there is, the top of the mountain. That’s not meant to be a boastful statement or a put-down toward other arts. It certainly doesn’t negate the effectiveness of other arts. A karate guy could certainly kick your ass. But, the principles of taijiquan make it superior to other arts. That being said, not all those who study TJQ will develop the level of skill necessary for self-defence or fighting.
To develop true high-level skill in TJQ requires Gong Fu (time). Imagine the kind of time commitment it takes to become a medical doctor. From the first grade through medical school and residency training. Even if one puts the time in to be a doctor, success is still dependent on the raw talent and abilities of the individual to meet the high standard that is required to be a doctor.
Likewise, true masters of Taijiquan had the raw talent and have invested the time (10 - 12 hours per day for many years) to develop high-level skill. In the old days in China, many of these guys had the time available to practice that intensely, because life was slower and many often worked in security or military type jobs that required a superior level of gong fu. Today’s faster paced society makes it harder, if not impossible, to train like that. Plus martial skill isn’t valued much these days.
That being said, very few people with high-level taiji skill are even around, much less available to teach - especially in America. In fact, many students of TJQ that take a martial approach to training aren’t learning the true nature of taiji, because often the teacher they learn from truly doesn’t possess high-level skill or understanding of taiji principle. There is often a misunderstanding of taiji principles by most people, which results in TJQ people fighting with external force, but thinking they are using taiji.
Comparing Karate and Taiji is like apples and oranges. In fact, it’s an inside joke in my group about tai kwon do and karate guys who think they can catch on to TJQ just because they’ve studied martial arts before. Taiji is completely opposite in it’s training methods, counter-intuitive if you like, to what is required in external martial training.
But again, external training produces faster results, that is why many external martial artists think that taiji is ineffective for fighting. I’ve witnessed higher-level taiji and now I’m a believer.
My post is probably going to anger a few, but I’ve trained external before and this new experience with internal has opened my eyes. Very few martial artists in this country ever get to witness true Chinese gong fu at a a high-level. It is amazing and awe-inspiring to me. I am truly humbled by my experience and realize that despite my previous triaining, I am again at the beginning of a journey.
Originally posted by delibandit
Taijiquan is the highest martial art there is, the top of the mountain. That’s not meant to be a boastful statement or a put-down toward other arts. It certainly doesn’t negate the effectiveness of other arts. A karate guy could certainly kick your ass. But, the principles of taijiquan make it superior to other arts. That being said, not all those who study TJQ will develop the level of skill necessary for self-defence or fighting.
Opinions vary on that. Ask a ba gua guy, or a xing I guy, or a lu he ba fa guy.
Hell, ask anyone who loves their chose art.
or…ask a guy who teaches all three. It really isn’t my opinion, it’s what I’ve been told. And yes, Bagua and Xingyi are very cool internal arts, but taiji is the most sophisticated. That’s why it’s called “the grand ultimate fist.”
Hmmm
Actually its called the Supreme Pole and grand ultimate fist is a poor translation of it.
Ask three practitioners of Taiji what ‘taiji’ means and they’ll tell you three things, everyone swearing blind that they’re right.
I have trained Wado-Ryu for 5 years now, and Yang style for 6 - with the same instructor, who in turn has trained with John Ding for about 8 years. There has been no problem in blending taiji into the karate - be clear it is a unidirectional of knowledge as there is nothing structural of benefit to take from karate into taiji (not a criticism of what there is - just an observation that it doesn’t help taiji).
I train karate because I want to build strong external skill that I then internalise over time with taiji - this then improves my karate as well as my taiji. It also provides a different set of energies to train against using taiji principles - I fundamentally believe that once you train taiji, everything that you do has taiji within it. When I go through my kata, it is taiji that is driving it - so mechanically my punch is different to how the karateka do it. At the moment it probably isn’t any harder, or faster, or ‘better’ in any measurable way. It just feels right for me. With time I may develop the sort of power that John or Ip generate - but that is worlds away from where I am at the moment.
Some great taiji masters have trained the external arts prior to (or with) their internal system - what I have drawn from them is that they did indeed perceive taiji (or any internal art) as ‘higher’, but that it had to come from a firm structural basis and understanding. Willie Lim once described it to a seminar I was at something like this:
“Taiji is like sculpting - if you start with a small amount of material then you can end up with a very small and delicate yet beautifully formed statue. With the external arts you ensure that you have more than enough material to create a much larger yet still perfectly formed statue”. I’m probably doing him no credit with that precis but I drew a lot from his words. I drew even more from his skill and delicacy which I found fascinating. Seeing him this Friday actually so I’m very enthused 
Application
The Karate I train (dunno about other styles) does a lot of work with application of kata, as well as boxing drills, fixed pairs work, locking etc. All of which gives me useful information to take and apply within my taiji. If I go to an Escrima class I find parallels in movement and strategy that strengthen my taiji.
There is a fixed pairs piece in Karate where you basically make a high block to a punch at head height. A lot of the karate guys just bang their arm up and smash you out of the way, some of the others though are much softer and stick to your attack, guiding away with delicacy. They call this “rice hand” - stickiness. In turn I train my sticking ability in this pairs work - it provides a forum where I get a lot of external energy to practice with. In a taiji class everyone tries not to provide that energy because they are striving for something different. If someone tries to smack me in the mouth at a club, they aren’t likely to be using internal energy. Ergo, it’s quite useful to train against different energy…
By all means take your own path of purity where you only learn within one system - I am hopeful that it will bear fruit for you. What purpose is there in dismissing other arts that you have no experience of? What purpose is there in basing your assessments of other arts on the writings of a master? He might have been to a bad school, or he might have been so highly trained that he felt there was no value elsewhere. Are you that highly trained? Can you discount other sources of experience and knowledge? How many masters have historically trained completely alone, with no recourse to looking at other arts and testing themselves?
I guess I’m saying - before you swear to the superiority of your art, make sure it is your art that you are referring to, rather than that of your master.
Paul
Greetings…
Hmmmm… My own perspective of Taiji is.. a set of principles, trained and illustrated by detailed choreography of various styles (loosely associated with Taoist philosophy).. the purpose of which is varied according to the intent of the student and the preference of the instructor (martial, health, meditative).. primary principles are proper body mechanics, use of various internal organic and energy systems (some elusive).. and, an abiding awareness of our relationship to our environment… aside from that, opinion and predjudice distorts my perspective..
Be well…
Now Wadoryu is an example of a karate that ISN’T Okinawan.
Just thought I’d point that out.
delibandit great post, and Kaitain(UK) aswell!
Both have some excelent poits!
I have also studied Karate (Funakushi) for about 6 years, then went over to Shaolin and some other family style gongfu.
Then later started with Chen Taijiquan and have devoted myself to this style 100% since.
I still train my external gongfu and I’m sure that this DOES give me a good foundation for training and application understanding. Although I often ignore some of the external characteristics to replace it with that which I’ve learned in taiji.
Although getting into the “softness” of taiji and understanding hardness through softness, the karate background is a bit of a negative.
My one gongfu brother studied Shotokan for 11 years and he still struggles to completely flow and relax.
Though I mentioned this I still think the time you take to “forget” the hardness of Karate is less than the time you take to understand martial arts and all the basics.
And yes, I do know that there are levels of Karate which also uses characteristics similar to taijiquan, but unfortunately this seems to be almost lost in MOST schools and survives mainly still in Japan…
coughOkinawankarateownsalloverJapanesederivativesofsuchcough
Buncha dam, durdy Tai Chi playin’ hippies.
Hsing I pwns jou!
