[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1048963]it is my opinion but i’m not the one living in a make-believe world trying to get others to follow me into it as well.
skipped answering that. ;)[/QUOTE]
yeah your question about forms I’ve answered over and over again, so I just left it at that this time figuring you likely already knew my position on what they are.
as for the world we live in, it is entirely make believe! lol
everything is a construct, everything is a shape placed before you.
All is mind.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1048966]that’s because they don’t spar enough. To be good at anything you have to do it repeatedly. Everyone looks like a monkey “flailing” the first time.[/QUOTE]
Many people do not go beyond the first time.
Part of the thing is the pop a pill thinking that people hold to even in teh here and now.
many people try something once, aren’t good at it and move on.
I would say this happens in most cases as far as lines of study that have merit go.
I mean, even in mma, there’s gotta be hundreds of thousands in clubs all over that practice mma, but the cream is a miniscule percentage of that. the same is true of any martial arts, or cooking school, or auto mechanics and so on.
the same is true of any pursuit. It’s like there is a percentage of people who actually think they know something without ever putting the effort into learning!
yeah your question about forms I’ve answered over and over again, so I just left it at that this time figuring you likely already knew my position on what they are.
as for the world we live in, it is entirely make believe! lol
everything is a construct, everything is a shape placed before you.
All is mind.
sorry if that’s too deep.
not to deep.
life is an illusion, we have no control, it wills us towards unknown destinations.
anyways the question is old, its been pounded into the ground, was pulling it out because I’m also tired of the same old argument, it was an answer to your tired answer.
[QUOTE=Drake;1048950]In all due fairness, a lot of resisted sparring by anyone without some significant experience typically looks like two monkeys flailing at one another.[/QUOTE]
Yeah? So? What’s your point? That’s how you develop to the point of not looking like a flailing monkey.
What’s funny is people say this and then, after years of “perfecting their techniques without full contact sparring” because they are afraid of “developing bad habits”, they get in and actually fight and can do absolutely nothing (although their forms look awesome). Then, all the other kung fu guys say, “Oh, their kung fu was bad. They weren’t real kung fu guys.”
The fact is the “not kung fu guys” simply didn’t develop application skill because they never spent the time to go through the “looking like monkeys” phase.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1049026]Yeah? So? What’s your point? That’s how you develop to the point of not looking like a flailing monkey.
What’s funny is people say this and then, after years of “perfecting their techniques without full contact sparring” because they are afraid of “developing bad habits”, they get in and actually fight and can do absolutely nothing (although their forms look awesome). Then, all the other kung fu guys say, “Oh, their kung fu was bad. They weren’t real kung fu guys.”
The fact is the “not kung fu guys” simply didn’t develop application skill because they never spent the time to go through the “looking like monkeys” phase.[/QUOTE]
But you are suggesting that is the norm in TCMA. I’ve seen otherwise. Sparring usually shows up in some form at most schools. Some do it later in the training, some start out with it.
My point is that flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value, despite the fact that everyone is sweaty and worn out, and sometimes end up with bloody noses and overextended arms. Argue all you like, but I’ve seen both sides of the fence.
[QUOTE=Drake;1049042]But you are suggesting that is the norm in TCMA. I’ve seen otherwise. Sparring usually shows up in some form at most schools. Some do it later in the training, some start out with it.
My point is that flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value, despite the fact that everyone is sweaty and worn out, and sometimes end up with bloody noses and overextended arms. Argue all you like, but I’ve seen both sides of the fence.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Drake;1049042]flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value[/QUOTE]
Hence the importance of sparring objectives. If there’s an objective, there’s intent. If there’s intent, there’s a drive to manifest that intent effectively. With good sparring objectives and a bit of instruction, the “monkey flailing” gets tried and discarded relatively quickly, making room for more effective techniques with respect to the objective.
[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;1049097]Hence the importance of sparring objectives. If there’s an objective, there’s intent. If there’s intent, there’s a drive to manifest that intent effectively. With good sparring objectives and a bit of instruction, the “monkey flailing” gets tried and discarded relatively quickly, making room for more effective techniques with respect to the objective.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Drake;1049042]But you are suggesting that is the norm in TCMA. I’ve seen otherwise. Sparring usually shows up in some form at most schools. Some do it later in the training, some start out with it.
My point is that flailing about like a monkey against a mutually flailing monkey has very little training value, despite the fact that everyone is sweaty and worn out, and sometimes end up with bloody noses and overextended arms. Argue all you like, but I’ve seen both sides of the fence.[/QUOTE]
but if someone does years of training, doing forms applications etc and it turns turn out to be useless once you start sparring and you STILL look like a flailing monkey why bother with all that stuff, why not get the flailing out of the way first get used to pressure and go from there. Why moan about it creating bad habbits when everyone looks like that be it a first time boxer or a 4 year old form student? if all that correct form training goes out the window when contact is made is it useful?
and people in kick boxing and boxing classes may look bad when they first spar but they still look like they train and how the seniors spar, the same cant be said of any sparring clips put up by traditional schools, at least none i have seen
All the people who go to commercial schools,have a day job,are over 35,majority of females,senior citizens,don’t want to train in or compete in MMA or full contact. But according to some here they are wasting their time, and should quit doing froms, and fight full contact in the ring hit pads only, do hard contact sparring regularly.
Steven K Hayes the Ninja guy once said “not everyone can be an athlete ,but everyone can learn how to defend themselves”.and also people who want to do exercise,have the right to. And then there is the point of just doing what you like to do. Unless you are Hilter reincarnated,leading us to a new world order,who give a f45k if you think all people should quit doing froms and train your way.[/QUOTE]
I want to respond to 2 parts of your post. 1st you don’t know anything about MMA gyms. I am a 56 year old hobbyist who trains BJJ at an MMA gym. You train at the level you can do and you don’t have to compete. That doesn’t mean you can’t train realistically against a resisting partner. The school I train at has everyone from hobbyists like myself to pros who compete in MT and MMA. (See my sig for info about my school)
The 2nd part is everyone can be an athlete. Being an athlete doesn’t mean its a full time job or you are a high level competitor. It just means you get out there and train and push yourself.
I don’t know why so many of you TCMA guys have so much anger. I never see that at the MMA gym.
[QUOTE=Frost;1051506]but if someone does years of training, doing forms applications etc and it turns turn out to be useless once you start sparring and you STILL look like a flailing monkey why bother with all that stuff, why not get the flailing out of the way first get used to pressure and go from there. Why moan about it creating bad habbits when everyone looks like that be it a first time boxer or a 4 year old form student? if all that correct form training goes out the window when contact is made is it useful?
and people in kick boxing and boxing classes may look bad when they first spar but they still look like they train and how the seniors spar, the same cant be said of any sparring clips put up by traditional schools, at least none i have seen[/QUOTE]
There’s pragmatism in training Judo, Shuai Jiao, Jiu Jitsu, MMA, Thai, boxing, San Da, or wrestling and not being a fighter yourself.
It’s simply this: You have the benefit of their (instructors and fellow club members) direct combat experience… strike and change that last sentence… their verified and proven combat experience. You get that even if you yourself aren’t a fighter. This isn’t pretend stuff passed down from a dead guy that may or may not even have existed… this is stuff from a living breathing experienced individual.
And - it doesn’t have to be in conflict with what you’ve already learned in TCMA. This isn’t a this or that scenario - you can do both. There’s a lot of value in TCMA - most of it’s been obscured by years of neglect - it’s there, we just have to admit that sometimes the best way to find something is by attacking it from another angle. I find that by training sport, my traditional gets better. I’m not unique. A lot of people on this very forum have found the same thing. There will come a point when we may all want to develop into the deeper more profound aspects of the arts. At that time you may say that was the point of MA the whole time so why did we waste our time with that silly sport fighting stuff. Then we’d kick your @rse while begrudgingly admitting that you may have had a point.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1051599]And - it doesn’t have to be in conflict with what you’ve already learned in TCMA. This isn’t a this or that scenario - you can do both. There’s a lot of value in TCMA - most of it’s been obscured by years of neglect - it’s there, we just have to admit that sometimes the best way to find something is by attacking it from another angle. I find that by training sport, my traditional gets better. I’m not unique. A lot of people on this very forum have found the same thing. There will come a point when we may all want to develop into the deeper more profound aspects of the arts. At that time you may say that was the point of MA the whole time so why did we waste our time with that silly sport fighting stuff. Then we’d kick your @rse while begrudgingly admitting that you may have had a point.[/QUOTE]
I’m not against MMA,if any of you guys read Kung Fu Tai Chi two issues ago I wrote an article on Shuai Jiao and MMA connection in china. My last coach here is a pro MMA fighter with a Shuai Jiao background. But it has become a fad with every Tom, **** and Harry jumping on the bandwagon.
Kung fu is a great art,sport and self defence system, Yes it has its short falls and does need to make some changes to be the most it can be. But One does not need to abandone all one’s traditional training methods and take up MMA,to please a few knuckle heads. I am living proff of this, i am doing judo in southern china now at 40 and kick 20 year olds asses on a regular. All my strenght and stamina training is traditional forms,standing,rings,and other training methods, and these guys are getting winded when i’m fresh. Next month I got a comp,see how it goes. I will do some taping as well.
