The demise of TMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=MightyB;806350]

Some people keep their heads in the sand with excuses- I mean what would you do if you devoted your best years to a crappy system and learned the terrible truth really late in life?

[/QUOTE]

Been said many times before, martial arts are like religion, challenge people’s faith and they get up in arms, when they have to question their dogma they react violently, we see it plenty here

[QUOTE=MightyB;806350]

You can be traditional and an MMAer at the same time. It’s easy- fighting is just Shuai, Na, Ti, Da - that’s it. Whatever your base style is- it’s not good at all ranges. Supplement with a complimentary style.

[/QUOTE]

People who are interested in fighting, that’s what they basicly do to varying degrees… some stay a little traditional, some leave the trapping behind completely

The real issue are those who never do that, and keep their heads in the sand while humming the official “secret deadly dim mak warrior” song :stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=MightyB;806350]

Check out what Shou Yu Liang and Tony Chen are doing- I like it. These are two traditionalist with a great approach to training.

[/QUOTE]

There are others, there are others

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[QUOTE=MightyB;806350]personally, I think TCMA is reaping the benefits of what the old school masters have sewn- you know with holding quality instruction because of fear, nationalism, prejudice, paranoi- etc…

We all have heard the stories of the instructors with holding their best teachings from the foreigner gwai-lo, now it’s paying TCMA back in spades. A lot of TCMA stuff don’t work because the “masters” failed to teach the stuff that worked. Now there isn’t anything to pass on because of all the bunk and the huge number of mis-informed gwai-lo teaching bunk.

We’re not stupid- (well, most of us aren’t) we go with what works and you can only be deceived for so long before you look elsewhere. Some people keep their heads in the sand with excuses- I mean what would you do if you devoted your best years to a crappy system and learned the terrible truth really late in life? It’d suck, and you wouldn’t want to face it right? Well- I see a lot of that.

Benny the Jet was a traditionalist, so was Bill Wallace, Don Wilson, and Joe Lewis. I’d say the Gracies are traditionalist- hybrid traditionalists, Mifune was a traditionalist-

You can be traditional and an MMAer at the same time. It’s easy- fighting is just Shuai, Na, Ti, Da - that’s it. Whatever your base style is- it’s not good at all ranges. Supplement with a complimentary style. Plain and simple- you’re lying to yourself if you think your MA can do it all 'cuz it can’t. If your base is striking- then supplement with a pure grappling style- two traditional styles makes you a good MMAer.

Check out what Shou Yu Liang and Tony Chen are doing- I like it. These are two traditionalist with a great approach to training. You’d have to read Kung Fu Elements and check out Tony Chen’s article about MMA in the PRC in Kung Fu Magazine to get what I’m talking about.

The B[/QUOTE]

I can tell you without a doubt the MOST schools have withheld correct instruction, that is assuming that their teachers even had correct instruction.
In my 30+ years of MA experience, rarely have i seen people doing things with correct body mechanics and with efficiency and effectiveness. Rarely.
karate or KF or TKD, most of what I have seen is terribly executed and would not work in self defense, not cause their forms were no good, but because their fundamentals were no good.
I think forms have nothing to do with this “problem”, it’s something bigger and deeper this wrong.
I think people just either don’t teach what is correct or don’t know what is correct.

Also, yes, indeed, every great fighting master of their day learned:
Shuai Jiao or some type of takedown art, Tong Bei, some type of long fist, and some type of internal TJQ, XY, BG material, plus sword and spear fighting. EVERY.

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only one bite and it’s lkfmdc?

Oh man, I gotta change my bait.

I didn’t say we should remove ‘the street/ring/cage’ for everyone. There will always be some amongst us to step up to the leitai and I hope that this population is growing. It seems that way to me here. As for the “just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates” those are all fine disciplines (I especially like my aerobics with a twist of lime :p), so by saying ‘just’ it makes it sound like they have less value. They have plenty of value when practiced properly. But that’s minor really. The very definition of tradition implies age. The older you get, the further you get from the ‘the ring/cage’. The street is always there, of course, and you do your best to cope with that. There are other battles that arise with age.

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[QUOTE=GeneChing;806357]

I didn’t say we should remove ‘the street/ring/cage’ for everyone.

[/QUOTE]

While the actual fighting isn’t for everyone, the TRAINING should be for everyone. Removing it and you don’t have martial art anymore…

[QUOTE=GeneChing;806357]

There will always be some amongst us to step up to the leitai and I hope that this population is growing.

[/QUOTE]

I hope so, but I’m skeptical based upon the trends I’ve seen over the years

[QUOTE=GeneChing;806357]

As for the “just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates” those are all fine disciplines

[/QUOTE]

fine disciplines, but not martial arts

raquet ball is great exercise, it’s fun, but don’t confuse it with fighting

[QUOTE=GeneChing;806357]

The older you get, the further you get from the ‘the ring/cage’. The street is always there, of course, and you do your best to cope with that. There are other battles that arise with age.

[/QUOTE]

old, numerous injuries, cancer surviver several times, not a fighter, but I train like one… I still make my body savage while the mind remains peaceful

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by the way, my comment was direct at streetfighter, not to confuse or offend anybody!!

I just think TMA pple need to train harder, then they can do fight. if thers not enough time to train something (like forms), then it’s better off to do it less and train the more important things.
but sometimes you look at some people’s eyes and “it”'s not there.

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LKFMDC’s “average” students are better than that “one guy” in every traditional school that can actually fight.

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[QUOTE=MasterKiller;806365]LKFMDC’s “average” students are better than that “one guy” in every traditional school that can actually fight.[/QUOTE]

I hear there are even girls who can beat people up :smiley:

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;806319]throws out a childish insult and then a veiled threat, we must have hit a nerve :rolleyes:

thanks for finally addressing direct questions

sure it is, it’s about the demise of TCMA, the fact they are no longe fighting is a big part of their demise… at least if you are concerned with the essence. If not, well, then why even bother with this thread?

I addressed this once before, you can’t afford $700 or so dollars to do the event?

Now, I admire that you wouldn’t do the event without insurance, but insurance is not a big deal, so I guess we’ll be seeing full contact at your event real soon…

BTW, I’m not the one whose underwear gets in a bunch simply because people are discussing things on a discussion forum

Man, you get awefully defensive awefully quickly…[/QUOTE]

LOL, yeah okay LKFMDC :slight_smile:

back to the discussion…

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[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;806368]LOL, yeah okay LKFMDC :slight_smile:

[/QUOTE]

I know you want it to seem like none of this bothers you, but it’s so transparent as to be amusing, really

It must be particularly annoying to you that I know so much about your lineage :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=MightyB;806350]We all have heard the stories of the instructors with holding their best teachings from the foreigner gwai-lo, now it’s paying TCMA back in spades. A lot of TCMA stuff don’t work because the “masters” failed to teach the stuff that worked. Now there isn’t anything to pass on because of all the bunk and the huge number of mis-informed gwai-lo teaching bunk. [/QUOTE]

A while back I was having dinner with a well known martial historian and he was telling how many of the masters weren’t holding back, but really had large gaps in their training. Having secret techniques is a great way to hide those gaps.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;806369]I know you want it to seem like none of this bothers you, but it’s so transparent as to be amusing, really

It must be particularly annoying to you that I know so much about your lineage :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Actually, i think your annoyed that i’m NOT bothered by your childish shinanegans.
You may have some of these guys Bamboozled, but not me. i’m familiar with your wellknown reputation back in the days when you tried to do TCMA.:rolleyes:
i can understand why your so bitter towards TCMA.

The funny thing is that these guys reading our post don’t know what’s underneath the surface of our exchanges and why your so threatened by me. :wink:
It’s personal so why don’t we keep it between us and stop wasting everyones time.

You don’t know anything about me, my lineage, jow ga or my sifu.
:smiley: and don’t mention my sifu’s name like you had any association with him.

you say martial arts is about fighting. i agree, but also respect, honor, etc.
you never learned that.

I’ll tell you what; i’m gonna be in new york around december. Instead of side tracking this thread, why don’t you and i get together for dim sum and discuss all the comments you’ve made? i would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts and comments in person.

:slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;806421]
you say martial arts is about fighting. i agree, but also respect, honor, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Based on what? Where in the term MARITAL ARTS does it make it essential to include respect, honor, etc?

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again, i think it goes back to training. two problems i often see SOME TCMA fighters facing when it comes to full contact matches.

  1. They don’t seem to train their own styles techniques enough for the ring.

  2. Many of them get in the ring and try to kick box. Nothing wrong with kickboxing. the problem is that many of them don’t have any formal boxing training. An opponent properly trained in boxing could defeat them with basic boxing fundamentals. At this point, your TCMA fighter is confused and caught between inadequate training in his traditional techniques and an immitation of boxing skills that he picked up from the Rocky movies. This is the fault of the
    Sifu.

alot of the MMA schools provide professional training in boxing.

This is just one example, but some of the choy lay fut schools have done a great job in combining fundamental boxing skills with their traditional techniques and seem to be producing some really good full contact fighters. If this trend continues with other TCMA schools, you will definitely see improvement pertaining to full contact. They’ve accomplished this without abandoning their style and keeping their traditions, unlike some other people who were lousy, so they just gave up on TCMA.

over the past few years, i’ve been to several kung fu tournaments that promote full contact competitions. My hat goes off to those guys on the west coast and many schools in europe because they are producing some really good TCMA full contact fighters. Some people on this forum speak about TCMA full contact fighting when they haven’t been around many of the more popular TCMA events in many years. they use there own full contact circuits and circles to judge TCMA full contact, when they know nothing about the TCMA full contact events going on around the world.

There is a really good TCMA full contact event in Gevelsberg Germany every year.:wink:

With all that said, some of the best fighters i have ever seen, never stepped foot in an organized full contact ring.:wink:

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[QUOTE=Asia;806433]Based on what? Where in the term MARITAL ARTS does it make it essential to include respect, honor, etc?[/QUOTE]

Back when martial arts was the worriors way of life, they were taught respect for their masters, theirs schools. Even the Shoalin monks taught respect for life and everything around them. The samuria worriors respected other worriors, they might have faught them , but still respected their abilities. Honor was top priority among the Japanese. Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.

In the martial arts schools today, we have taken it one step further by showing respect for other schools, unless the prove they deserve no respect.

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[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;806434];)[/QUOTE]

Just wondering if you have something in your eye.

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[QUOTE=Asia;806433]Based on what? Where in the term MARITAL ARTS does it make it essential to include respect, honor, etc?[/QUOTE]

Based on my own experience and the same experience of people i’ve known for many years. i mention this first because i try to base what i say on my own experiences. Now, i’m sure you can find many books and articles on the history of martial arts and see that respect and honor have been included.

Essential, i never said if was. You have alot of knuckleheads out there practicing martial arts. Hopefully people have been taught respect and honor by their parents. In martial arts, the ones who speak out against respect and honor in martial are usually the ones with some issues.

you don’t have to accept it. It’s essential for me and the many kids i teach as a tool to help them stay off the streets and out of trouble. TCMA, MMA, Judo, etc… are just names, but they are what you make it and not what anyone else tells you.

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[QUOTE=FungFu2u2;806438]Back when martial arts was the worriors way of life, they were taught respect for their masters, theirs schools.[/quote]
Was that something to do with MA or a CULTURAL thing? It was cultural just like in anything else.

[qutoe]Even the Shoalin monks taught respect for life and everything around them.[/quote]
Because they were a religious order. The biggest misconception was that MA was birth at Shaolin. That wasn’t the case. MA was brought into Shaolin and mixed with its already established religous teachings.

The samuria worriors respected other worriors, they might have faught them , but still respected their abilities. Honor was top priority among the Japanese.

OW BAD EXAMPLE!!!
Samurai were some of the worse *******s out there. Do you know what BUREI UCHI is? It was the right of the samurai to basicly kill ANYONE who annoyed them. It was notoriously abused.

Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.

Cultural norm nothing to do with MA. What about the MA practices in the rest of the world?

In the martial arts schools today, we have taken it one step further by showing respect for other schools, unless the prove they deserve no respect.

Says who?

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[QUOTE=rogue;806439]Just wondering if you have something in your eye.[/QUOTE]

LOL, tears from laughing
:wink:

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Honor was top priority among the Japanese. Most of the asians were the same way when it came to respect.

Ever hear of the Bataam Death March? The Burma Railway? Yup them Japanese sure were into honor and respect of their fellow warriors.

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[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;806421]

You may have some of these guys Bamboozled, but not me. i’m familiar with your wellknown reputation back in the days when you tried to do TCMA.

[/QUOTE]

Would you be refering to being asked to perform in the NACMAF master’s demonstration by Tai Yim?

Or perhaps my takign 4th in the NACMAF long/short advanced division behind Hung Stewart, Daniel Tomazaki and jason Wong (ie the top three players in the nation)

Perhaps you’re talking about how my students took home over 14 trophies one year, equally in forms, weapons and sparring

And where were you back then? I don’t remember you performing, or competiting, or in any of the meetings…

[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;806421]

You don’t know anything about me, my lineage, jow ga or my sifu.
and don’t mention my sifu’s name like you had any association with him.

[/QUOTE]

I know TONS about your system, your sifu and your lineage, and that’s why you get so upset…