I agree with you, but do we blame the TMA or do we blame the practioners (teacher and students alike) ?
[/QUOTE]
You can’t separate the two so easily.
If people were training the way the “older generation” trained around 100 years ago (and up to around '49 on the mainland) they’d be, GASP :eek:, training a lot more like a MMA person does
Some people think that if you are doing the technique, it is Chinese martial art even if you aren’t wearing silk PJ’s, aren’t doing forms, aren’t doing weapons, aren’t using Chinese terms, and don’g lion dance
But the VAST MAJORITY clings to “tradition” and calls those guys heretics…
We’ve said it before, but what has been built up as “tradition” and which is embraced now by these people really has very little to do with reality
I think its a case of selective interpretation in regards to tradition.
All MA have a tradition of fighting and most are aware of this, heck I am sure everyone that practices any system has been told the stories of the fightign legends of the past.
So why focus on the non-combative part of the traditions and not the combative parts?
Because most people are a bunch of pussies that confused “fighting as a last resort” with no fighting at all.
I think its a case of selective interpretation in regards to tradition.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, but the 24 million dollar question is WHY this has evolved?
Shuai Jiao people ALL “wrestle”, they have a competition format that is inherent in their method. And many of them cross over into Judo and submission wrestling contests to try out what they do
As much as I hate push hands, you have a certain segment of the Tai Chi community that actually does competition. William CC Chen of course comes to mind. Darn, isn’t it funny that the Tai Chi people are more competitive than the “hard styles” :eek:
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;806179]
everyone that practices any system has been told the stories of the fightign legends of the past.
So why focus on the non-combative part of the traditions and not the combative parts?
[/QUOTE]
People have been sold a bag without openning it… they’ve been swindled and con’ed
People think that if there was a great fighter in the tradition, it must be a great fighting art and so if they do it, they must be fighters…
Lama Pai had Wong Yan-Lam, arguably the most visible fighting figure in recent TCMA history… public challenges that were recorded in newspapers.
CTS was a certified badass, his wallet read “bad m-f-er”
Guess what? Out of the THOUSANDS of students he had in both the US and back in China, the ones that had even a semblance of fighting ability was small…
Of those 100, how many have students that do any sort of full contact fighting or alive competition? Not point sparring, not continuous point sparring, not sparring in their school, but real actual testing of their skills in an open envirionment?
LKFMDC, how are you?
If this is how you measure a martial artist, then no comment is necessary.
Although, being that you are a full contact promoter, i can understand why you would bring this up.
All this rhetoric and prejudice against ALL TCMA is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;806211]And what do YOU think TCMA should be all about then?
Do you think the masters of old wanted their students to be ballet dancers :rolleyes:
Hate to break it to you, again, but MARTIAL ARTS are about fighting. If they weren’t then they’d be chi kung, or yoga, or pilates…
And YOU are a promoter of an all forms and point sparring tournament :rolleyes:
Let’s also remind everyone that when someone asked you why you don’t have any full contact in your tournament you freaked out :rolleyes:
If you’re just going to focus on looking pretty and not worry about fighting, you should do modern wushu[/QUOTE]
LOL:D
Dave your right as always and your the greatest.
so now can we move on?
Peace LKFMDC
Tailik:
…TMA schools have to remember that in today’s western society, conditioning for health and training to defend yourself with practical techniques are at that forefront in the minds of many students todays.
People have been saying this for a few thousand years.
So what.
Get off your chair and practice and train.
Go fight someone and test yourself.
It isn’t the TCMA that is being tested, its your skills and your wits.
This is valid for TCMA, TJMA, TKMA, any TMA from any country, and for MMA.
How crappy you are or how great you are is not a reflection of the style, it is a reflection of your how efficient and effective your training is, and how you much you have tested yourself and learned from it.
People are called masters because they have mastered something, they put the time and effort into testing themselves and their material.
For sure, most people complaining, not all, have not mastered anything, or had the time to try.
The obvious observation and point is that most TCMA schools aren’t fielding fighters of any sort…
a place dedicated to San Da will have between 4 and 12 people getting ready to compete at any given time
Shuai Jiao students all “wrestle”, many do stuff like judo also
a BJJ school will have it’s students competing in BJJ tournaments
anyplace doing MMA has students competing
why is it when a TCMA school goes to a tournament, it’s students do forms and not fighting?
you aren’t saying that TCMA isn’t about fighting are you? Seems you’re saying the opposite, so then, why doesn’t that ethic manifest itself in practice?
To say TMA is dying is an insult to your ancestors
I hear the ‘tradition is dying’ argument all over this forum. Do you know where else I hear it? Historical references, some that date back centuries. When people complain that frauds are killing TMA, they are echoing what has already happened before. Hasn’t anyone done research on this? Just considered what it must have been like for our ancestors attempting to preserve their tradition during the rise of the firearm. That’s a thrilling part of martial history. Fakes arose left and right as military skills evolved into sport. They did made it obviously, or it wouldn’t have reached the people that we all call masters today. So now, if you say ‘tradition is dying’, the only person to blame is yourself. What you’re really saying is ‘my tradition is dying because I’m too lame to pass it from my master to my juniors’. There have always been fake masters. There always will be fake masters. We’ve had fake masters for centuries. Can we learn to deal with fake masters already?
As for the other point ‘real TMA is only about fighting’, I agree and disagree. It depends how you define ‘fighting.’ If you define ‘fighting’ by street and ring fights, I disagree. Sure, that’s important, but not the only fight. If you define ‘fights’ to include those personal challenges - disease, age, rehab and finding balance - then I’ll agree. There was this guy I used to work out with - grossly overweight, diabetic, lives a horrible lifestyle - through his practice he’s fighting just to reach a normal state of health. He was getting there, slowly, but after years of practice, he was still not very skilled. He had no real striking power and would crumple if hit with the slightest impact. But he was there, practicing regularly, and for him, kung fu was his redemption. It was his only shot at being healthy. For many, that’s the ultimate battle. Inevitably, as we all grow older, we’ll all face this. I lost track of that guy so I couldn’t tell you if he made it or not. TMA has always provided for people like him. It’s surely saved more lives with this application than through actual street self defense.
That all being said, from my odd post on the martial world, I see the traditional arts rising. There’s more fakes for sure, but there’s more traditional too. The bottom line is that there’s more of everything. Martial culture had been growing steadily on all fronts. I truly believe that the future looks very bright for traditional martial arts right now. I just hope all you ‘tradition is dying’ folks don’t delay that growth from all your bellyaching.
I can play volleyball, I can play chess,I can play guitar, and I can fight.
I can’t play at the level of the Nike Beach Volleyball team.
I can’t play as good as Bobby Fischer.
I can play guitar, but I’m no Joe Satriani
I can fight, but I’m no Chuck Liddel
so, evidently, I’m worthless.
But ya know what?
I have a decent serve, good set-ups, and the occaisional spike, and I have fun at picnics.
I enjoy setting up my strategies, and the focus and concentration that comes with being “in the game.”
I get out and play in blues jams, and can pretty much wail if I get in a good groove. Working on putting out a cd and putting the band back together perhaps to tour locally.
I’ve defended myself when neccesary, and did a pretty good job of it. My students have done the same. I can hit fast and hard,throw,lock, and grapple, and I’m still learning. It hurts to be thrown again and again (at 50) and I limp into bed-with a smile on my face, cuz I’m having a great time.
So fek yizall:p
[QUOTE=TenTigers;806253]I can play volleyball, I can play chess,I can play guitar, and I can fight.
I can’t play at the level of the Nike Beach Volleyball team.
I can’t play as good as Bobby Fischer.
I can play guitar, but I’m no Joe Satriani
I can fight, but I’m no Chuck Liddel
so, evidently, I’m worthless.
But ya know what?
I have a decent serve, good set-ups, and the occaisional spike, and I have fun at picnics.
I enjoy setting up my strategies, and the focus and concentration that comes with being “in the game.”
I get out and play in blues jams, and can pretty much wail if I get in a good groove. Working on putting out a cd and putting the band back together perhaps to tour locally.
I’ve defended myself when neccesary, and did a pretty good job of it. My students have done the same. I can hit fast and hard,throw,lock, and grapple, and I’m still learning. It hurts to be thrown again and again (at 50) and I limp into bed-with a smile on my face, cuz I’m having a great time.
So fek yizall:p[/QUOTE]
Interesting point.
The other day I was boxing and stepped into the ring with a 'kid" that was beginning to train for an up and comming fight, he is ranked #5 in Canada, LH.
He schooled me.
After the first 3 rounds, and while he was not “mine” for the first three, I did, as per his coach, Better than most pros in that gym.
Could I beat him?
Hell no, but its nice to be able to hang in there for a bit.
As for the other point ‘real TMA is only about fighting’, I agree and disagree. It depends how you define ‘fighting.’ If you define ‘fighting’ by street and ring fights, I disagree. Sure, that’s important, but not the only fight. If you define ‘fights’ to include those personal challenges - disease, age, rehab and finding balance - then I’ll agree.
[/QUOTE]
OK Gene, I’ll bite (I might even photoshop later)…
While TCMA can be used to fight these other “fights” (personal challenges), they are most certaily also for the street, the ring, the cage etc
If we remove the street/ring/cage and just leave the personal challenges, aren’t we just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates??
Surely (Shirley), not everyone has to fight on a Lei Tai, but one has to wonder why NO ONE is
Not to play the old ****s card, but full contact COMPETITION is a young mans game and when I was young, boy did I play it and now, as an older individual I am paying the price and reaping some of the rewards still.
That said, I would be concerned why younger people in the combat arts AREN’T fighting as much as they can.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;806260]Not to play the old ****s card, but full contact COMPETITION is a young mans game and when I was young, boy did I play it and now, as an older individual I am paying the price and reaping some of the rewards still.
That said, I would be concerned why younger people in the combat arts AREN’T fighting as much as they can.[/QUOTE]
I’m old, I have numerous injuries, I’ve survived cancer THREE TIMES, so my competition days are well behind me, even then I was a b-level amateur, but I did something. Today, not all my students fight, but about 10% does (around 20 students ready to fight at any given time)…
TCMA schools are full of young in shape people. They can do astounding forms performances, many are great gymnasts… surely one or two students in a school could fight full contact, no? :rolleyes:
traditional martial arts isnt dead. i read an article saying its already dead, and that we have to promote health, morals, self defense from things other then people (corporations, mcdonalds), and peace. what the guy didnt realize, at least to me, these values are in traditonal martial arts. its just a new form of marketing.
tma will never demise as long as there are good teachers out there promoting the art and always adapting.
